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2 hours ago, Joe B said:

Picture it:

Danny Pugh oversees things till May. We finish 18th and it's not been good enough, so he steps down back to First Team Coach and we appoint External Manager X.

External Manager X arrives. The players are at home/abroad (if allowed). He has a salary cap. He knows some need to be released but he's never seen 'Manny Oyeleke', 'Alex Hurst', or 'Mark Cullen' in a competitive game before. He knows a bit, but he hasn't seen them train. He asks around; Pugh, Sinclair, Garlick. They tell him what they think. No new, external perspective.

He has the oldest squad in the league in front of him. He has £1.5m to work with. How on earth does he make an informed decision about who to retain and release?

He makes his decision, satisfied. He moves onto signings. He has a rough idea of what positions he wants to buy, but obviously needs to work with the recruitment department to ensure he isn't making any mistakes and can get the best bang for his buck.

He introduces himself to the scouts, and says he wants a Left Back, Centre Half, and Right Winger. They offer him a list. Manager X hasn't heard of one, and has never seen the other two live. He doesn't have time to think about it/scout them himself; these players have offers on the table. Either pull the trigger or miss out.

He pulls the trigger on 3 players he's never seen, entirely on the basis on scouts he's just met. He releases and retains players, based on the opinions of people already at the club and maybe a bit of match footage. He draws up a training plan, hoping he can implement a brand-new system, instil his values, and create a cohesive unit, all within 5-6 weeks of training.

Compare this to a manager who has been in situ since February, knows by April who he's releasing and who he wants to sign, and has already installed the way he wants to operate and his tactics. We nail the summer window as we are well prepared and act early and decisively. The dead wood is swiftly despatched in an informed decision-making process, and pre-season can be focused on fitness and cohesion, instead of an entirely new tactical set-up. The fans, buoyant over their new manager, but STs and merchandise in larger numbers, and the buzz builds. 

Does anyone else see the issue? This is all very hyperbolic but the underlying issues stand. This is why 'Pugh till the summer' is not the best idea.

Agree with this, however, for balance the other comparison would be this though.

Imagine we employ external manager A now because we can afford him. He doesn’t meet the criteria set out by Carol so first thing that happens is people feel deflated and make it clear they are not happy. Yes he assesses the squad but his whole history is one of league 2 management without sustained success so history repeats Itself and that’s what we get next year and the year after.

Vs 

Pugh handles the role until the summer but negotiations and searching continues to happen in the background... a pool of available managers is widened as more become available and suddenly someone becomes available who fits the criteria. They are appointed at the start of summer and because they are a football manager by trade they have their own contacts and use those to assess who they want and who to bring in. They start the season slowly as they don’t know the players as well as someone who had finished the season last year but history repeats itself and they achieve the success we paid for.

There are no easy answers.

We are working with 2 variables.

1. Success of manager.

2. When to employ manager

I totally agree, if we can find a manager that suits us and meets the criteria NOW then we should hire them.

But if we can’t would you want a sub standard one or wait and see... people have criticised Carol for her communication saying she wanted success, they will criticise her if she hires someone now who doesn’t match their own definition of those criteria and they will criticise her if she puts Danny in charge while she tries to find it.

Maybe people just love to criticise! 🙂

Edited by Iron Curtain
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Some interesting responses on here to the latest development. I'd like to add some context. In the past TWENTY YEARS we have only achieved a top 7 finish in the league... ONCE. This was under MA

The meltdown on here is laughable.  Please can someone tell me the success we have had in appointing a manager since Micky left? None. Flitcroft being appointed DoF shows our long term visio

Check out wiki.  He's run the family business with his brother and father for 15 years and has his own football academy.  He's not been "just" a player and manager.  In view of the amount of crit

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19 minutes ago, Iron Curtain said:

Agree with this, however, for balance the other comparison would be this though.

Imagine we employ external manager A now because we can afford him. He doesn’t meet the criteria set out by Carol so first thing that happens is people feel deflated and make it clear they are not happy. Yes he assesses the squad but his whole history is one of league 2 management without sustained success so history repeats Itself and that’s what we get next year and the year after.

Vs 

Pugh handles the role until the summer but negotiations and searching continues to happen in the background... a pool of available managers is widened as more become available and suddenly someone becomes available who fits the criteria. They are appointed at the start of summer and because they are a football manager by trade they have their own contacts and use those to assess who they want and who to bring in. They start the season slowly as they don’t know the players as well as someone who had finished the season last year but history repeats itself and they achieve the success we paid for.

There are no easy answers.

We are working with 2 variables.

1. Success of manager.

2. When to employ manager

I totally agree, if we can find a manager that suits us and meets the criteria NOW then we should hire them.

But if we can’t would you want a sub standard one or wait and see... people have criticised Carol for her communication saying she wanted success, they will criticise her if she hires someone now who doesn’t match their own definition of those criteria and they will criticise her if she puts Danny in charge while she tries to find it.

Maybe people just love to criticise! 🙂

I fear that if we're waiting for a top 3 manager to present himself, and not demand top 3 money, we're never going to appoint anyone. 

There's also no guarantee that the managerial pool widens.

Waiting till the summer is as inherent with risks as making an appointment now. Identify your man and get him in the club. 

We have employed the 'we will wait till the end of the window so there are lower prices' for a couple of windows now, which has largely yielded us signing dross. I sincerely hope we don't employ the same process in appointing a manager. 

Interview, identify the best man, get him in, and cut cloth accordingly. The manager is THE fundamental appointment for this club's future. Some cost-cutting may need to be done. 

Edited by Joe B
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Just now, Joe B said:

I fear that if we're waiting for a top 3 manager to present himself, and not demand top 3 money, we're never going to appoint anyone. 

So then we have a few options.

Be angry that Carol won’t pay the money... personal preference but not a stance I would ever take in a Covid year with £1m down in Rev already.

Accept that the sooner we want a manager the more we may have to compromise on those criteria.

Hire a manager now and people not continually draw back to the criteria Carol mentioned and claim to be disappointed in her.

I think we agree on the best option... hire a good manager now.
 

But life isn’t perfect and if the choice was good manager later or lesser manager now... then it’s a difficult choice. I would probably go for good manager later.

 

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2 minutes ago, Iron Curtain said:

So then we have a few options.

Be angry that Carol won’t pay the money... personal preference but not a stance I would ever take in a Covid year with £1m down in Rev already.

Accept that the sooner we want a manager the more we may have to compromise on those criteria.

Hire a manager now and people not continually draw back to the criteria Carol mentioned and claim to be disappointed in her.

I think we agree on the best option... hire a good manager now.
 

But life isn’t perfect and if the choice was good manager later or lesser manager now... then it’s a difficult choice. I would probably go for good manager later.

 

I'll never be angry at Carol - she has earned the right to do what she wants and I trust her that nothing she chooses to do will have the purpose of damaging Vale.

However, Carol's tenure as Chairlady is largely going to be reliant on who she appoints here. She'll recognise the gravity, and is accordingly taken her time, but I'd hate to miss out on the man who could take us to the next level as extraneous spending is occurring elsewhere and holding us back from securing the cream of the crop.

Its up to her, though. I'll support whoever she appoints. I just hope she gets it right.

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Just now, Joe B said:

I'll never be angry at Carol - she has earned the right to do what she wants and I trust her that nothing she chooses to do will have the purpose of damaging Vale.

However, Carol's tenure as Chairlady is largely going to be reliant on who she appoints here. She'll recognise the gravity, and is accordingly taken her time, but I'd hate to miss out on the man who could take us to the next level as extraneous spending is occurring elsewhere and holding us back from securing the cream of the crop.

Its up to her, though. I'll support whoever she appoints. I just hope she gets it right.

Yeah the extra cash question is a good one...

It always seems crazy that lower league teams wont pay as much for a manager as they do for some players. Would it be worth reducing the budget next year to fund the difference... in my eyes it would. 

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Just now, Iron Curtain said:

Yeah the extra cash question is a good one...

It always seems crazy that lower league teams wont pay as much for a manager as they do for some players. Would it be worth reducing the budget next year to fund the difference... in my eyes it would. 

I'd rather have an average squad and good manager than vice versa.

Look at what Accrington have done with a great manager and a squad that, on paper, looks bang average by our league's standards, let alone the one above. Same goes for Wycombe, Cheltenham, Morecambe.

Manager first. Squad second.

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1 hour ago, grand prix pants said:

Looks like the leaks have been plugged. Loving the silence!

im 503% sure we dont know anything. as a mist descends over vale park the contaganists shelter from the storm. (another bob ref:):drink:

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11 minutes ago, Joe B said:

I'd rather have an average squad and good manager than vice versa.

Look at what Accrington have done with a great manager and a squad that, on paper, looks bang average by our league's standards, let alone the one above. Same goes for Wycombe, Cheltenham, Morecambe.

Manager first. Squad second.

Although the stats show that generally success follows those who pay for it, I’ve always said at this level, being fit and well organised can get you a long way.

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John Rudge would have been hooked when he took over from McGrath, his record was atrocious, all hail Kevin Finney, and that just sums it up for me, and the problem Carol faces, luck is never included in the equation, Carol has an unenviable task, financials are obviously going to play a massive part going forward.

How many of this seasons Box holders, VP's and season ticket holders are going to renew next season ?

Setting next seasons budget is going to be one of the hardest in footballs history.

I know folk will say spend the money and get a manager in, it's a no brainer an easy point of view when it's not your money and there is no money in the pot.

 Carol and Kevin have not built up their successful business by just spending and certainly not spending what they don't have, Carol will have a plan and as supporters we have got to support her vision and hope that the part of equation that is rarely mentioned; luck, comes good. 

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18 minutes ago, TylerB said:

 

Let's be honest, Carol could appoint Gary Glitter and some people here would try to justify it. 

He was a leader !!!

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John Rudge would have been hooked when he took over from McGrath, his record was atrocious, all hail Kevin Finney, and that just sums it up for me, and the problem Carol faces, luck is never included in the equation, Carol has an unenviable task, financials are obviously going to play a massive part going forward.
How many of this seasons Box holders, VP's and season ticket holders are going to renew next season ?
Setting next seasons budget is going to be one of the hardest in footballs history.
I know folk will say spend the money and get a manager in, it's a no brainer an easy point of view when it's not your money and there is no money in the pot.
 Carol and Kevin have not built up their successful business by just spending and certainly not spending what they don't have, Carol will have a plan and as supporters we have got to support her vision and hope that the part of equation that is rarely mentioned; luck, comes good. 
Bob on Black dog.
We could hire the best possible manager available and ultimately he(she) might fail or we could stick with Pugh and he may bring total success but 'success' is the key word.
We all have differing opinions as to exactly what constitutes success.
Some (according to those who are always right) are Happy Clappers and will view staying in league two as success.
Others seem to want League One status.
Personally, and I say this as a bona-fide Happy Clapper, I want Champions League before I die. Unlikely I know but it's a level of success I hope the club aspire to.
It would be interesting - on another thread- to see other people's views on what they call success.
Back on topic I have no idea who will get the job bit God help them when we lose 3 on a row.

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39 minutes ago, blackdog said:How many of this seasons Box holders, VP's and season ticket holders are going to renew next season ?

Setting next seasons budget is going to be one of the hardest in footballs history.

This is a massive concern I think. I’ve had a season ticket for about 5 years, and sporadically before that. But I’m not sure I’ll be renewing. There are all kinds of reasons why I’m not alone, but I think going to the footy on a Saturday afternoon is a habit for lots of folk, and the pandemic has broken that habit for all of us. How many will return?

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1 minute ago, grand prix pants said:

This is a massive concern I think. I’ve had a season ticket for about 5 years, and sporadically before that. But I’m not sure I’ll be renewing. There are all kinds of reasons why I’m not alone, but I think going to the footy on a Saturday afternoon is a habit for lots of folk, and the pandemic has broken that habit for all of us. How many will return?

It depend on where we are with the pandemic over the summer, but if people can see that football will be back open for business as usual next season then it could work the other way, where folk are just so glad to get out they'll turn up in their droves.  It's hard to call, and the timing and nature of any lifting of restrictions will obviously be crucial.

As things stand right now I'll be picking 3 up.

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53 minutes ago, blackdog said:

John Rudge would have been hooked when he took over from McGrath, his record was atrocious, all hail Kevin Finney, and that just sums it up for me, and the problem Carol faces, luck is never included in the equation, Carol has an unenviable task, financials are obviously going to play a massive part going forward.

How many of this seasons Box holders, VP's and season ticket holders are going to renew next season ?

Setting next seasons budget is going to be one of the hardest in footballs history.

I know folk will say spend the money and get a manager in, it's a no brainer an easy point of view when it's not your money and there is no money in the pot.

 Carol and Kevin have not built up their successful business by just spending and certainly not spending what they don't have, Carol will have a plan and as supporters we have got to support her vision and hope that the part of equation that is rarely mentioned; luck, comes good. 

Luck is the undefined magic element in football. More often promotion is your 4 or 5 key players staying fit and relegation all 4 or 5 injured for a fair part of the season. I think that partly explains why managers appear geniuses one season; only to be sacked the next.

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18 minutes ago, grand prix pants said:

This is a massive concern I think. I’ve had a season ticket for about 5 years, and sporadically before that. But I’m not sure I’ll be renewing. There are all kinds of reasons why I’m not alone, but I think going to the footy on a Saturday afternoon is a habit for lots of folk, and the pandemic has broken that habit for all of us. How many will return?

This is a good point, after such a gap people do change, how many will return to footy and other sports, how many regular pub goers will return etc etc. These are indeed strange times

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49 minutes ago, grand prix pants said:

This is a massive concern I think. I’ve had a season ticket for about 5 years, and sporadically before that. But I’m not sure I’ll be renewing. There are all kinds of reasons why I’m not alone, but I think going to the footy on a Saturday afternoon is a habit for lots of folk, and the pandemic has broken that habit for all of us. How many will return?

I will be glad to get rid of the habit of not being able to go anywhere, pubs, eating out, trips in the car, football etc

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Christ,all chill out!Carol will sort it out to the best for Port Vale FC.Im convinced a few of Smurthwaite's  pub crawlers are stirring it up on this site.

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