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Next Manager


davehartshill

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Surprised that Chris Powell is one of the favourites for the Wimbledon job, as I thought he was part of Southgate's coaching setup with England (and would remain so until after the Euros).

If he's available and interested in lower league jobs, he's definitely someone we should be looking at (.....money permitting, of course!)

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4 hours ago, Joe B said:

Another week draws towards Saturday, and I get ever closer to winning my bet on Pugh by default.

Cancel the 'Speed not Haste' mantra, please. I want to book a holiday. Take your sweet time, Vale. Really think this through. 

Up the Hesitant/Ponderous Whites.

Same boat here,each game that goes by is a step closer to his 10 games needed 🙂 

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13 minutes ago, The Kalamazoo Kid said:

Surprised that Chris Powell is one of the favourites for the Wimbledon job, as I thought he was part of Southgate's coaching setup with England (and would remain so until after the Euros).

If he's available and interested in lower league jobs, he's definitely someone we should be looking at (.....money permitting, of course!)

https://londonnewsonline.co.uk/chris-powell-afc-wimbledon-job-link-is-flattering-but-a-non-starter/

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2 hours ago, valiant_593 said:

Surely if Wimbledon have a chance of getting him then there’s no reason we couldn’t get him? They could well be in league 2 next season anyway 

There is assumption a lot of these people want to be a manager at any cost. Anyone who has played or managed at championship should really have a million plus invested. There is no need to uproot your family if you have that much; particularly when the average time in post is only 14 months. You can sit in academy coaching to earn pocket money and enjoy life, or take all the stick all over social media. A lot of ex players quickly decide they just don't want it; or only if its a commute rather than home location. 

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2 hours ago, Joe B said:

Picture it:

Danny Pugh oversees things till May. We finish 18th and it's not been good enough, so he steps down back to First Team Coach and we appoint External Manager X.

External Manager X arrives. The players are at home/abroad (if allowed). He has a salary cap. He knows some need to be released but he's never seen 'Manny Oyeleke', 'Alex Hurst', or 'Mark Cullen' in a competitive game before. He knows a bit, but he hasn't seen them train. He asks around; Pugh, Sinclair, Garlick. They tell him what they think. No new, external perspective.

He has the oldest squad in the league in front of him. He has £1.5m to work with. How on earth does he make an informed decision about who to retain and release?

He makes his decision, satisfied. He moves onto signings. He has a rough idea of what positions he wants to buy, but obviously needs to work with the recruitment department to ensure he isn't making any mistakes and can get the best bang for his buck.

He introduces himself to the scouts, and says he wants a Left Back, Centre Half, and Right Winger. They offer him a list. Manager X hasn't heard of one, and has never seen the other two live. He doesn't have time to think about it/scout them himself; these players have offers on the table. Either pull the trigger or miss out.

He pulls the trigger on 3 players he's never seen, entirely on the basis on scouts he's just met. He releases and retains players, based on the opinions of people already at the club and maybe a bit of match footage. He draws up a training plan, hoping he can implement a brand-new system, instil his values, and create a cohesive unit, all within 5-6 weeks of training.

Compare this to a manager who has been in situ since February, knows by April who he's releasing and who he wants to sign, and has already installed the way he wants to operate and his tactics. We nail the summer window as we are well prepared and act early and decisively. The dead wood is swiftly despatched in an informed decision-making process, and pre-season can be focused on fitness and cohesion, instead of an entirely new tactical set-up. The fans, buoyant over their new manager, but STs and merchandise in larger numbers, and the buzz builds. 

Does anyone else see the issue? This is all very hyperbolic but the underlying issues stand. This is why 'Pugh till the summer' is not the best idea.

Agree with this, however, for balance the other comparison would be this though.

Imagine we employ external manager A now because we can afford him. He doesn’t meet the criteria set out by Carol so first thing that happens is people feel deflated and make it clear they are not happy. Yes he assesses the squad but his whole history is one of league 2 management without sustained success so history repeats Itself and that’s what we get next year and the year after.

Vs 

Pugh handles the role until the summer but negotiations and searching continues to happen in the background... a pool of available managers is widened as more become available and suddenly someone becomes available who fits the criteria. They are appointed at the start of summer and because they are a football manager by trade they have their own contacts and use those to assess who they want and who to bring in. They start the season slowly as they don’t know the players as well as someone who had finished the season last year but history repeats itself and they achieve the success we paid for.

There are no easy answers.

We are working with 2 variables.

1. Success of manager.

2. When to employ manager

I totally agree, if we can find a manager that suits us and meets the criteria NOW then we should hire them.

But if we can’t would you want a sub standard one or wait and see... people have criticised Carol for her communication saying she wanted success, they will criticise her if she hires someone now who doesn’t match their own definition of those criteria and they will criticise her if she puts Danny in charge while she tries to find it.

Maybe people just love to criticise! 🙂

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19 minutes ago, Iron Curtain said:

Agree with this, however, for balance the other comparison would be this though.

Imagine we employ external manager A now because we can afford him. He doesn’t meet the criteria set out by Carol so first thing that happens is people feel deflated and make it clear they are not happy. Yes he assesses the squad but his whole history is one of league 2 management without sustained success so history repeats Itself and that’s what we get next year and the year after.

Vs 

Pugh handles the role until the summer but negotiations and searching continues to happen in the background... a pool of available managers is widened as more become available and suddenly someone becomes available who fits the criteria. They are appointed at the start of summer and because they are a football manager by trade they have their own contacts and use those to assess who they want and who to bring in. They start the season slowly as they don’t know the players as well as someone who had finished the season last year but history repeats itself and they achieve the success we paid for.

There are no easy answers.

We are working with 2 variables.

1. Success of manager.

2. When to employ manager

I totally agree, if we can find a manager that suits us and meets the criteria NOW then we should hire them.

But if we can’t would you want a sub standard one or wait and see... people have criticised Carol for her communication saying she wanted success, they will criticise her if she hires someone now who doesn’t match their own definition of those criteria and they will criticise her if she puts Danny in charge while she tries to find it.

Maybe people just love to criticise! 🙂

I fear that if we're waiting for a top 3 manager to present himself, and not demand top 3 money, we're never going to appoint anyone. 

There's also no guarantee that the managerial pool widens.

Waiting till the summer is as inherent with risks as making an appointment now. Identify your man and get him in the club. 

We have employed the 'we will wait till the end of the window so there are lower prices' for a couple of windows now, which has largely yielded us signing dross. I sincerely hope we don't employ the same process in appointing a manager. 

Interview, identify the best man, get him in, and cut cloth accordingly. The manager is THE fundamental appointment for this club's future. Some cost-cutting may need to be done. 

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Just now, Joe B said:

I fear that if we're waiting for a top 3 manager to present himself, and not demand top 3 money, we're never going to appoint anyone. 

So then we have a few options.

Be angry that Carol won’t pay the money... personal preference but not a stance I would ever take in a Covid year with £1m down in Rev already.

Accept that the sooner we want a manager the more we may have to compromise on those criteria.

Hire a manager now and people not continually draw back to the criteria Carol mentioned and claim to be disappointed in her.

I think we agree on the best option... hire a good manager now.
 

But life isn’t perfect and if the choice was good manager later or lesser manager now... then it’s a difficult choice. I would probably go for good manager later.

 

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2 minutes ago, Iron Curtain said:

So then we have a few options.

Be angry that Carol won’t pay the money... personal preference but not a stance I would ever take in a Covid year with £1m down in Rev already.

Accept that the sooner we want a manager the more we may have to compromise on those criteria.

Hire a manager now and people not continually draw back to the criteria Carol mentioned and claim to be disappointed in her.

I think we agree on the best option... hire a good manager now.
 

But life isn’t perfect and if the choice was good manager later or lesser manager now... then it’s a difficult choice. I would probably go for good manager later.

 

I'll never be angry at Carol - she has earned the right to do what she wants and I trust her that nothing she chooses to do will have the purpose of damaging Vale.

However, Carol's tenure as Chairlady is largely going to be reliant on who she appoints here. She'll recognise the gravity, and is accordingly taken her time, but I'd hate to miss out on the man who could take us to the next level as extraneous spending is occurring elsewhere and holding us back from securing the cream of the crop.

Its up to her, though. I'll support whoever she appoints. I just hope she gets it right.

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Just now, Joe B said:

I'll never be angry at Carol - she has earned the right to do what she wants and I trust her that nothing she chooses to do will have the purpose of damaging Vale.

However, Carol's tenure as Chairlady is largely going to be reliant on who she appoints here. She'll recognise the gravity, and is accordingly taken her time, but I'd hate to miss out on the man who could take us to the next level as extraneous spending is occurring elsewhere and holding us back from securing the cream of the crop.

Its up to her, though. I'll support whoever she appoints. I just hope she gets it right.

Yeah the extra cash question is a good one...

It always seems crazy that lower league teams wont pay as much for a manager as they do for some players. Would it be worth reducing the budget next year to fund the difference... in my eyes it would. 

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Just now, Iron Curtain said:

Yeah the extra cash question is a good one...

It always seems crazy that lower league teams wont pay as much for a manager as they do for some players. Would it be worth reducing the budget next year to fund the difference... in my eyes it would. 

I'd rather have an average squad and good manager than vice versa.

Look at what Accrington have done with a great manager and a squad that, on paper, looks bang average by our league's standards, let alone the one above. Same goes for Wycombe, Cheltenham, Morecambe.

Manager first. Squad second.

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11 minutes ago, Joe B said:

I'd rather have an average squad and good manager than vice versa.

Look at what Accrington have done with a great manager and a squad that, on paper, looks bang average by our league's standards, let alone the one above. Same goes for Wycombe, Cheltenham, Morecambe.

Manager first. Squad second.

Although the stats show that generally success follows those who pay for it, I’ve always said at this level, being fit and well organised can get you a long way.

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