Manager Poll

[Joe B]

7 hours ago, Ron C said:

If you recognise yourself as an idiot, then so be it. Who am I to argue with that?

My point is that he has success and understands how to win. He's done it as a player and as a manager. We have a worse budget than when he arrived. Progress includes stability. Clubs do not win anything without stability. He has showed that he can win on a slender budget.

I think malcontents like yourself undermine everything we are doing as a club. I think that you fail to understand how teams are built. It takes time. The first year requires the cleaning out. The next year or 2 is where the foundations are put into place for stability. The seasons after those are where the team is built. Key players are acquired over time.

We DO NOT have a massive budget to attract the better players from the lower leagues. We need someone who will blood lesser known talent. That is how you do it. JA has a track record of doing it and being involved in it. You, do not, and you seemingly do not understand how it works either.

Doing it as a player has absolutely no relevance to success as a manager. Complete non-argument.

Our squad is the oldest in the league and our spine is 33-35. To put this season down as a transition year is short-sighted and completely contradicts what Carol said in the summer. You're being revisionist, retrospectively lowering pre-season expectations to fall in line with underperformance. 

You keep saying I wouldn't be any better, and I'm happy we've found common ground. Thankfully, I'm not in line to replace Askey, but I think there are better alternatives (Parkinson, for one, who has achieved 10x what Askey has achieved at professional level). Seriously, telling me 'you're not as good as Askey' doesn't refute any of my points as I'm not paid good money to manage a football team. It's a terrible argument. It's a last recourse of someone who has ran out of salient points. 'You can't demand a change of manager as you, average Vale fan, couldn't do better'. It's so weak.

Askey will not blood lesser known talent as a good 15 of his 21 signings have been either poor or unmitigated failures. 

JA has no record for blooding unknown talent. He has 1 promotion in 7 years, which was a great one, but has otherwise finished mid-table in the division below us or been sacked 21 games into his other job. I come back to my previous point; Morecambe operate on probably half of our budget; how are they able to recruit better players? Or is their manager just better than ours? Accrington the same. It's either they are better at signing players with less money, or have a better manager.

I appreciate you've got a strong view and I like you're forthright with it, but the foundations for your view thus far is 'Askey had success as a player, Joe B from OVF wouldn't do any better therefore no one would, and Askey will rebuild the side despite having an abject recruitment record'. It just isn't convincing me to change my view.

All I know is that we're currently lower now than where we were 2 years ago, with largely the same best 11 who have all aged, and Askey has taken us from 18th to 16th. It's not sufficient. 

[Joe B]

EDITED COMMENT, nothing to see here.

[The French Connection]

Leeds endured a very similar run last season, yet got back on track and won the league by 10 points. Just saying.

I said it before and I’ll say it again, we might as well right this season off promotion-wise, nobody goes up having lost 9 out of their first 19 games. 
That said, a relegation battle doesn’t look out of the question at the moment.

[Joe B]

1 hour ago, Ron C said:

. His track record speaks for itself in the transfer market. He uncovers gems.

Lloyd. Evans. Archer. Maddison. Kennedy. Browne. Mills. Whitehead. McKirdy. Robinson.

Are you related to Askey? This is one of the most outlandish claims I've ever read.

[Joe B]

8 minutes ago, Ron C said:

Know Askey? I'm imagining you might; has he upset your dad at some stage? Did he steal your girlfriend? Did he not let you play with the big boys? You seem to spend all your time trying to attack him and our club. I'm assuming you've got nothing going right in your life and this is one of those things you think is to blame. I really don't know you but you seem to know nothing about football and how a club is built up for success. You either throw money at it or give it time and commitment. You seem oblivious to it.

Christ. Are you alright, mate? Take a few deep breaths, it's only the Vale. Let's try not and get this personal.

My life is really decent at the minute though, I appreciate the concern. Bit worried about your anger issues on a simple debate of Port Vale's manager.

[Guitar Ray]

17 minutes ago, Joe B said:

Lloyd. Evans. Archer. Maddison. Kennedy. Browne. Mills. Whitehead. McKirdy. Robinson.

Are you related to Askey? This is one of the most outlandish claims I've ever read.

Not all of the players you've listed were signed as potential gems Joe and you know it.  To me a gem is a player out of nowhere, a chancer come good.  Archer was a potential gem, signed on the back of a good game against us and must have showed something in training, also possibly Browne, who actually looked like he'd push on in pre-season if you recall.  Those two didn't work out.  Of his other signings I'd suggest Hurst, Rodney and possibly Burgess are players we could say were signed as potential gems.  These latter 3 are all in and around the first team.  Burgess not hitting the heights of last season yet,  Hurst and Rodney doing OK whilst still learning their trade.  So you've named 10 players, some of whom were never signed as what we could describe as gems, and I've thrown in 3 more.  If just one of these turns out to be a gem that's not a bad return.  In reality you've got to turn a fair few stone over before you unearth that gem.  Rudgie was better at it than most, in a different era of football, and even he signed some kippers.

[sinnott2spinnit]

36 minutes ago, The French Connection said:

Leeds endured a very similar run last season, yet got back on track and won the league by 10 points. Just saying.

Surely this can’t be true!!!

[Ron C]

Just now, Joe B said:

Christ. Are you alright, mate? Take a few deep breaths, it's only the Vale. Let's try not and get this personal.

My life is really decent at the minute though, I appreciate the concern. Bit worried about your anger issues on a simple debate of Port Vale's manager.

I'm glad to hear it. Now spend some time researching the correlation between wage structures and success in football instead of trying to dig up and magnify issues at our club. You might find something useful.

You do nothing but moan. You're like a broken record. I doubt anything in your life is going well judging by the absolute nonsense you put on here.

I think you're the one who needs to take a few breaths. Only the Vale for you, perhaps.

[Joe B]

1 minute ago, Guitar Ray said:

Not all of the players you've listed were signed as potential gems Joe and you know it.  To me a gem is a player out of nowhere, a chancer come good.  Archer was a potential gem, signed on the back of a good game against us and must have showed something in training, also possibly Browne, who actually looked like he'd push on in pre-season if you recall.  Those two didn't work out.  Of his other signings I'd suggest Hurst, Rodney and possibly Burgess are players we could say were signed as potential gems.  These latter 3 are all in and around the first team.  Burgess not hitting the heights of last season yet,  Hurst and Rodney doing OK whilst still learning their trade.  So you've named 10 players, some of whom were never signed as what we could describe as gems, and I've thrown in 3 more.  If just one of these turns out to be a gem that's not a bad return.  In reality you've got to turn a fair few stone over before you unearth that gem.  Rudgie was better at it than most, in a different era of football, and even he signed some kippers.

Askey has signed 21 players: Maddison, Crookes, Kennedy, Brisley, Burgess, Lloyd, Evans, Hurst, Taylor, Amoo, Browne, Cullen, Bennett, Archer, Rodney, Mills, Whitehead, Robinson, Fitzpatrick, Visser, McKirdy, Clark.

Serious question; if the whole squad is fit, how many of them make the first 11? In my view, it's Amoo and Rodney and you stop there. There are possible arguments for Fitzpatrick and maybe Burgess but I'd turn to Montano and Conlon in turn. In my view it's not good enough, and a mid-table budget shouldn't factor into this as teams with much less money than us manage to do much better.

I accept that you have to sign some rough gems, but Rodney looks to be the only example of this, and Hurst possibly (though it's very early to say yet).

 

[Joe B]

14 minutes ago, Ron C said:

I'm glad to hear it. Now spend some time researching the correlation between wage structures and success in football instead of trying to dig up and magnify issues at our club. You might find something useful.

You do nothing but moan. You're like a broken record. I doubt anything in your life is going well judging by the absolute nonsense you put on here.

I think you're the one who needs to take a few breaths. Only the Vale for you, perhaps.

I was Askey's biggest defender last season and have been effusive in my praise about our owners. I just think it's time for a change.

My life is going excellently, I'm absolutely smashing it, thank you for mentioning it again, but your personal comments and apparent anger/insecurity about having your opinion challenged makes me feel there's a bit of projection going on. Wanting a change at Port Vale, thankfully, has no correlation to my personal life. Can we not just fight out the points at hand without inventing apparently bad lives for one another?

Genuinely mate. We disagree. Chill. It's no big deal! Football is full of opinions. It's nearly Christmas. For some reason you're trying to invent me as having a really bad life to justify us differing in opinion, which isn't healthy for you.

We'll agree to disagree. I sincerely hope you are proven right (apart from my life falling apart, which touch wood it's solid at the present and I'd like to keep it that way) and we should move on, as you're getting a tad aggressive and the original debate has gone in lieu of your fantasies about my personal life.

 

[Joe B]

17 minutes ago, sinnott2spinnit said:

Surely this can’t be true!!!

The worst run Leeds had last season was 4 losses in 5, and then lost as many games in 46 as we have in 19 (9).

I'm not sure what the original poster was trying to get at, but it's not true.

[Ron C]

10 minutes ago, Joe B said:

I was Askey's biggest defender last season and have been effusive in my praise about our owners. I just think it's time for a change.

My life is going excellently, I'm absolutely smashing it, thank you for mentioning it again, but your personal comments and apparent anger/insecurity about having your opinion challenged makes me feel there's a bit of projection going on. Wanting a change at Port Vale, thankfully, has no correlation to my personal life. Can we not just fight out the points at hand without inventing apparently bad lives for one another?

Genuinely mate. We disagree. Chill. It's no big deal! Football is full of opinions. It's nearly Christmas. For some reason you're trying to invent me as having a really bad life to justify us differing in opinion, which isn't healthy for you.

We'll agree to disagree. I sincerely hope you are proven right (apart from my life falling apart, which touch wood it's solid at the present and I'd like to keep it that way) and we should move on, as you're getting a tad aggressive and the original debate has gone in lieu of your fantasies about my personal life.

 

Biggest defender last season? I raise my eyebrows at yet more churlish nonsense. You are full of it.  To you, being off topic means anything not castigating our club.

We'll jog on until I challenge your next post of critical guff.

[Joe B]

6 minutes ago, Ron C said:

Biggest defender last season? I raise my eyebrows at yet more churlish nonsense. You are full of it.  To you, being off topic means anything not castigating our club.

We'll jog on until I challenge your next post of critical guff.

I'm starting to warm to you.

Genuinely, was a big fan of his last year, if you'll forgive the initial hyperbole. Too much stuff going wrong this year. He'll get the season to turn it around and I hope he does, but I'm just not seeing improvement in his flaws as a manager (transfers, seeing out games, tactical flexibility).

I am happy to continue debating the merits of John Askey but you started inventing crazy things about my life in order to denigrate my opinions, which is what I deemed off-topic, as it is! Nothing to do with the title/theme of this thread.

I look forward to it; hopefully my personal life holds up as strong as it currently is in the meantime!

 

 

[Guitar Ray]

2 hours ago, CambridgeDon said:

To say we believed it is a broad and inaccurate generalisation. Not everyone believed it and several posters on this site (me included) were consistent in saying that we were short in our recruitment, especially in midfield.

And it's not accurate to say that it's mainly the players who are at fault. As I said in my previous post, they are Askey's players and at the end of the day he's the one being paid to get a tune out of them. It's Askey who decides who stays or goes, recruits new players, selects the team, decides on tactics, motivates and organises them and manages the game through substitutions and changes in approach on the day. Yes, the players have let him down but, at the end of the day, he's the one responsible for their performance. Or else why have a manager? While there have been some glaring individual errors, most of our demise has been through his poor team selection, tactical ineptitude, and lack of game management - with some deficiencies that he's failed to put right over two seasons. 

Yes, there are no guarantees but we are going nowhere. And won't ever under this manager and with this (his) squad. It's as simple as that. 

This is why managers get the sack - because they are underperforming as leaders - and Askey is no different. 

Are you kidding or did you have your head in the sand over the summer?  Do you honestly believe the vast majority of fans thought we weren't good enough for a play off place?  Not everyone has your great insight.  From what I remember virtually everyone, including fans from other clubs had us finshing in the playoffs had the season run to it's conclusion.  Also, from memory lack of goals was expressed as THE major issue NOT midfield.  People were saying that we had the best midfielder in the division, in Manny, when fit.  The concerns were up front.

It is 100% accurate of me to say the players are MAINLY at fault.  If you disagree I suggest you've either not watched the games or never played competitive football yourself, or both. Some of the errors are pub league stuff.  I would be moaning if I saw iton a Sunday morning. Example, getting consistently done by long balls over the top.  Askey has made mistakes for sure, who hasn't, but at the most basic level if a player completely misses the target from 6 yards out the manager has little control other than to drop said player, and that's if injuries permit.

You talk about team selection but we've had a lot of games where certain selections have been forced upon us.  It's fair to say Saturdays team was far from our perceived best 11.  Sometimes this can be a good thing, where a player such has Hurst grasps the nettle, but usually it's disruptive.

If we change manager tomorrow it's still be Askeys squad and the first team will be broadly the same, we ain't changing 11 players in January that's for sure, so what then?  Ah yes, we'll appoint someone with a magic wand.  What are the current odds on Dynamo?

[Guitar Ray]

36 minutes ago, Ron C said:

I'm glad to hear it. Now spend some time researching the correlation between wage structures and success in football instead of trying to dig up and magnify issues at our club. You might find something useful.

You do nothing but moan. You're like a broken record. I doubt anything in your life is going well judging by the absolute nonsense you put on here.

I think you're the one who needs to take a few breaths. Only the Vale for you, perhaps.

Steady on Ron old bean.  Christmas spirit.  Good will and all that.  There's plenty to moan about right now to be fair.  Not just football.  We're all going stir. 🤪