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Taking the knee.


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6 hours ago, Andyregs said:

Because it will dilute the message to those that are willing to hear it. Why play their games to pander to a group who will refuse to change. 

I thought the message was black lives matter too? 

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When is this taking the knee crap gonna stop its getting beyond a joke. Who the hell decided that politics should be brought into football. I've been a season ticket holder ever since I left the Army

Do you sit outside the ground?

Couldn't resist seeing the levels of ignorance on here. I watched people racially abuse Exodus, hurling abuse and referencing his ethnicity for not performing well as a player.  I heard the

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Probably because three word slogans are generally considered to be effective.

Not much point arguing against people who see subtext where there isn't any, or who willingly misinterpret something to pretend that they do, or are willing to derail a conversation about race and turn it into an argument about semantics.

Edited by Santa

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30 minutes ago, Santa said:

Probably because three word slogans are generally considered to be effective.

Not much point arguing against people who see subtext where there isn't any, or who willingly misinterpret something to pretend that they do, or are willing to derail a conversation about race and turn it into an argument about semantics.

Then don't argue just capitulate and agree, like you expect others to do.

Is a 3 word slogan of "white lives matter" racist? Acceptable? 

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Probably because three word slogans are generally considered to be effective.
Not much point arguing against people who see subtext where there isn't any, or who willingly misinterpret something to pretend that they do, or are willing to derail a conversation about race and turn it into an argument about semantics.


It's not about semantics at all, just the point that getting your message across in the most effective and attractive way. If you wanted to declare your love for your fiancee, Richard, in a public display, you would say 'I love Richard', not 'I love Dick'. Adding 'too' to BLM simply caters for all potential palates and leaves no room for argument or misrepresentation.

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4 hours ago, geosname said:

If a racist knows.................. then they are racist?

I would assume whatever a racist knows is irrelevant because they are already racist.

Bingo! 

3 hours ago, Nofinikea said:

No.  Stubbornness versus stubbornness.  People are stubbornly digging in on the blm matter more and the other side is digging in not using "too".

We assume that those digging in about more are overtly racist.  Therefore it is reasonable that those digging in about the use of the word "too" are being overtly woke.

The end result is that the debate stagnates and goes nowhere.  One side is deliberately missing the point, the other side doesn't see why they should change the wording.

Its also a leap to assume racism in all cases.

Whats coming across is the I am better than them attitude.  Its like a teacher who responds to a student not understanding something by repeating it over and over in exactly the same way as they did originally because they don't believe the student is being genuine.  Surely the answer is, to take away the possibility for them to use the excuse?

Thats how the enlightened teach the ignorant, not by just pouring scorn on them and turning your nose up.

No, we just don’t let racists dictate the movement. And why does this ‘confusion’ only exist with regards to racial equality movements? 
Do you think this picture confuses people? Makes them angry?

 

2 hours ago, geosname said:

What I find difficult to understand is....

If black lives matter means black lives matter too and your support could increase significantly if you included the word "too"...... why wouldn't you?

You actually believe those people who get angry at someone believing a black life matters, will suddenly get on board with black lives matters too. The movement isn’t going to bring those people on board. The aim is to make their backwards mind set irrelevant. 

370A5EE3-B2F5-490B-8B74-944F32A15280.jpeg

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The Black Lives Matter slogan states the obvious. Of course, everybody's life on the planet matters. Personally, I wouldn't take the knee to Black Lives Matter/White Lives Matter/Heterosexual Lives Matter/Gay Lives Matter/Vale Fans Lives Matter/My Family Lives Matter etc.

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11 hours ago, Nofinikea said:

Its political.  Like it or not.  The poppy has also been hijacked by the right wing which is why I dont wear one anymore.  I donate and I remember, as dont need to wear a poppy to pay respects.

You're actually allowing it to be hijacked.  Wear it, WITH PRIDE,  then you are effectively taking it back from the "right wing" or whoever.  The vast majority know what the poppy stands for, those individuals who gave their lives.  Don't be taken in by the media and their BS on this one.

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3 hours ago, Nofinikea said:

It seems that not conceding anything to the opposition no matter how much it might benefit the situation is more important than the cause itself.  I think for some of you, its about being superior which is ironic really.

Not conceding to racists is the cause.

11 hours ago, Nofinikea said:

Its political.  Like it or not.  The poppy has also been hijacked by the right wing which is why I dont wear one anymore.  I donate and I remember, as dont need to wear a poppy to pay respects.

Is this what conceding to the opposition looks like? 

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On 14/12/2020 at 05:01, Joe B said:

Ok, will attempt to engage with your points in turn.

BLM protests have been 93% peaceful (source: https://time.com/5886348/report-peaceful-protests/). Whilst every single protest is going to face some numpties more focused on causing trouble (and we can point to those Churchill statue defences over the summer for evidence of all political persuasions facing the same issue), the vast majority of people who support the cause are peaceful and law-abiding. It is a myth that BLM are focused on violence.

I would like to know how Time magazine and other left wing media in the USA calculated that number that came to that conclusion. Many people died,  some defending their livelihoods from looters, billions of dollars of property was destroyed, there were many picture of owners of family businesses sobbing on tv over the damage done. The BLM protests weren't peaceful, far from it.

https://thecritic.co.uk/the-myth-behind-blms-peaceful-protests/

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I'm afraid I disagree with your second point to; the US police has had racist elements to it since inception (https://www.newstatesman.com/world/north-america/2020/06/history-america-s-racist-police-slave-patrols-present). We can go back to events like Rodney King as evidence, even before the issues we've seen in the 2010s. Academic studies have shown police brutality to be the leading cause of death for young, male ethnic minorities in the US, and there is a far higher chance of them facing violence than their white peers do (https://www.pnas.org/content/116/34/16793). Now, a counter-argument is often that African-Americans commit more crime proportionally, but that leads us down the messy path of poorer education and lower incomes that has been an issue for their communities as a result of historic, systemic discrimination preventing their ancestors from accumulating capital, and is best saved for another thread. It is incorrect, in my view, to assert the police in the US do not have racism issues within it.

There will always be bad actors in any large group of people and there will almost certainly be a small racist element in any police force (All ways) but the police work hard to eradicate such factions. Because of the prevalence of guns in the USA the only action for anyone of any ethnicity to ensure a good outcome is to comply with the instructions of a Police Officer and I can testify to that myself on the two times I have been stopped in my car. The Police make millions of stops over the course of a year and only a tiny, tiny, tiny fraction have a bad outcome.

Police brutality is not the leading cause of death for you male ethnic minorities in the US, there would be absolute, total and utter outrage if it was. The leading cause of death for black males up to the age of 44 is homicide and the majority of homicides are carried out by other black males not the police (data from different years but the pattern is repeated year on year) https://www.cdc.gov/healthequity/lcod/men/2017/nonhispanic-black/index.htmhttps://www.cdc.gov/healthequity/lcod/men/2017/nonhispanic-black/index.htm. The number of unarmed black males shot by the police in 2019 was 9, the number of unarmed white males was 20.

African Americans disproportionately commit more violent crime https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2017/crime-in-the-u.s.-2017/tables/table-43. The biggest problem in the African-American community is considered to be a lack of a father in the home, the stats point to >75% of black kids grow up in a single parent household which leads to high drop out rates from school, a lack of money and poor behavior, what are BLM doing about this. I believe the stats for Chinese and White are in the 20-30% range.

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I've said before; tarring anyone who follows the beliefs of BLM with some tweets of its founders is silly. It is akin to saying every Conservative voter shares the views of every Conservative leader, instead of the more accurate view that they probably share some views but not all, and the leader just happens to be the leader of the Party closest to their views. There is BLM the political organisation, and then the concept of 'Black Lives Matter', which is separate. Whilst the BLM group can be considered at the vanguard of the movement, the views of its leader (in old tweets) cannot be extended to Leon Legge. 

Two of the founders said they were trained Marxists which resulted in the the goals/beliefs of BLM being left wing/Marxist. However, if you look on their website now some have been removed likely due to sponsors and people turning away from the organization.

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I really don't like the 'black men have made it in sports, they should be thankful to the system!' argument. So, if some young black men make it as a result of incredible hard work and talent in a certain, that's supposed to be enough evidence to conclude that there are no systemic barriers in other fields? Or that the police aren't disproportionately violent towards ethnic minorities? Just because you make money doesn't mean you have to wash your hands of all injustice. There is still a pay gap between ethnic minorities and white people in the UK, of 2.3% (this is much better, as not long ago it is 8.4%). https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/earningsandworkinghours/articles/ethnicitypaygapsingreatbritain/2019#:~:text=In 2019%2C the median hourly,in 2014%2C at . Just because very successful young men like Rashford and Sterling make a lot of money (as they are literally in the top 0.0001% of what they do), doesn't mean the average person doesn't face issues.

In the USA over 60% of African Americans are described as middle class and are prominent in many fields such as senior government jobs, lawyers, tv anchors, actors, doctors, nurses etc as well as sports people. An African American was president for 8 years.

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Finally, Will Whit is a well-known right-wing Youtuber. The data presented in that video is very selective and skewed, with most academic research suggesting the opposite to the core argument.

Will Whit was the interviewer, the person providing the information was Heather MacDonald who is an extremely well respected person in this field. You should take a look at black people like Thomas Sowell, larry Elder, Candice Own and Carol Swain as well as many others who have a totally different view from the Sharptons and Jesse Jacksons on the issues facing African Americans and BLM. 

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I can get not liking 'BLM' the political organisation, but the knee dates back to the Civil Rights Movement of the 1960s, and was popularised by Colin Kaepernick choosing to kneel instead of stand during the National Anthem in NFL games (to demonstrate that he felt America needed to work on racial equality, and not from an affinity with the socio-economic theories of a German 19th century philosopher). 

I am no fan of BLM the organisation, am not a member, and would not identify myself as a follower.

However, I believe there is still work to be done with regards to racial equality in the West, and if footballers wish to use their platform for 8 seconds to keep those issues at the forefront of debate, then they're not doing anyone any harm, not causing any problems, and therefore have my support. 

 

Racism exists, there's work to be done but BLM is not the way forward IMHO. What concrete actions has BLM taken to change the lives of black people in the 6 years since it's inception, you will be hard pressed to find any tangible actions. Where is the money going?

Edited by Paul6754
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6 hours ago, Paul6754 said:

I would like to know how Time magazine and other left wing media in the USA calculated that number that came to that conclusion. Many people died,  some defending their livelihoods from looters, billions of dollars of property was destroyed, there were many picture of owners of family businesses sobbing on tv over the damage done. The BLM protests weren't peaceful, far from it.

https://thecritic.co.uk/the-myth-behind-blms-peaceful-protests/

There will always be bad actors in any large group of people and there will almost certainly be a small racist element in any police force (All ways) but the police work hard to eradicate such factions. Because of the prevalence of guns in the USA the only action for anyone of any ethnicity to ensure a good outcome is to comply with the instructions of a Police Officer and I can testify to that myself on the two times I have been stopped in my car. The Police make millions of stops over the course of a year and only a tiny, tiny, tiny fraction have a bad outcome.

Police brutality is not the leading cause of death for you male ethnic minorities in the US, there would be absolute, total and utter outrage if it was. The leading cause of death for black males up to the age of 44 is homicide and the majority of homicides are carried out by other black males not the police (data from different years but the pattern is repeated year on year) https://www.cdc.gov/healthequity/lcod/men/2017/nonhispanic-black/index.htmhttps://www.cdc.gov/healthequity/lcod/men/2017/nonhispanic-black/index.htm. The number of unarmed black males shot by the police in 2019 was 9, the number of unarmed white males was 20.

African Americans disproportionately commit more violent crime https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2017/crime-in-the-u.s.-2017/tables/table-43. The biggest problem in the African-American community is considered to be a lack of a father in the home, the stats point to >75% of black kids grow up in a single parent household which leads to high drop out rates from school, a lack of money and poor behavior, what are BLM doing about this. I believe the stats for Chinese and White are in the 20-30% range.

Two of the founders said they were trained Marxists which resulted in the the goals/beliefs of BLM being left wing/Marxist. However, if you look on their website now some have been removed likely due to sponsors and people turning away from the organization.

In the USA over 60% of African Americans are described as middle class and are prominent in many fields such as senior government jobs, lawyers, tv anchors, actors, doctors, nurses etc as well as sports people. An African American was president for 8 years.

Will Whit was the interviewer, the person providing the information was Heather MacDonald who is an extremely well respected person in this field. You should take a look at black people like Thomas Sowell, larry Elder, Candice Own and Carol Swain as well as many others who have a totally different view from the Sharptons and Jesse Jacksons on the issues facing African Americans and BLM. 

Racism exists, there's work to be done but BLM is not the way forward IMHO. What concrete actions has BLM taken to change the lives of black people in the 6 years since it's inception, you will be hard pressed to find any tangible actions. Where is the money going?

Fake news

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Leon’s view... for those who are playing the “I should be free to express my dislike” the question now shifts to why would you want to do something that offends players in your team? Why would you want the black players to be upset, disenfranchised, and feeling let down by their fans!

I have asked this a few times around people who berate and sl@g off players on social media... best answer they can come up with is “because I can”

No one can or will answer why they would want to. 

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1 hour ago, Iron Curtain said:

Leon’s view... for those who are playing the “I should be free to express my dislike” the question now shifts to why would you want to do something that offends players in your team? Why would you want the black players to be upset, disenfranchised, and feeling let down by their fans!

I have asked this a few times around people who berate and sl@g off players on social media... best answer they can come up with is “because I can”

No one can or will answer why they would want to. 

Perhaps, and it's only a perhaps, they are not booing the players.

Perhaps another question to be asked is why would you do something to upset the people who pay your wages.

For equality to exist it has to apply to all, not one side or the other but both equally, which means accepting someone's right to dissagree with what you choose to do, in whatever way they choose to do it.

I neither condemn nor condone taking the knee or voicing an objection. Each side has a right to take the action they choose.

In this situation it appears that one side can do what it chooses and criticise anyone who doesn't agree while the other side has to be quiet and take it..... is that the equality we want?

There is a strong possibility that there are people "out there" who just see a player who just happens to be black and a victim of police brutality and murder? who is a man who happens to be black.

Is this police brutality more prevalent against ethnic minorities? Possibly. Surely the goal should be to stop it all not make it proportional.

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25 minutes ago, geosname said:

Perhaps another question to be asked is why would you do something to upset the people who pay your wages.

Im sure the slaves were told something similar.

Dont upset them... stay in your box.

Im sure you didn't mean it like this Geo, but that was a very poorly placed comment.

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44 minutes ago, geosname said:

 

For equality to exist it has to apply to all, not one side or the other but both equally, which means accepting someone's right to dissagree with what you choose to do, in whatever way they choose to do it.

I'm afraid this doesn't wash... its like saying that we shouldn't tackle any individual crime classifications unless we can get rid of them all.

Its like saying we shouldn't stop a particular drug hitting the market unless we can stop them all.

Absolutely we should attack areas where inequality has become disproportionate, any improvement is better than nothing.

Here is a player that has reached out and tried to explain how much this means to him and his fellow black players. Only to be met with a wall of "We get to boo" if we want. Its a very sad technicality that I would suggest the unfortunate majority are hiding behind.

If that is the genuine view then as previously stated... Someone sleeping with their best mates wife is technically something you can do... but as a decent human beings we hopefully have something inbuilt in us that hopefully means we try and do the decent thing.

It feels to me like acknowledging the pain these players are feeling would be the decent thing to do... and not even acknowledge it, just be quiet and let them have a moment. 

We stand quiet as Gambling companies run rife over the game whilst simultaneously ruining peoples lives... that one slips through the net.

But racial equality... People have decided that not only can they not just give them the space to feel their pain and present it to the world. No THIS issue... THIS SPECIFIC one, is the one where we feel the need to audibly show we disagree with them.

Its shameful.

And with that Im out of this thread again.. it genuinely makes me feel bad about humanity.

Final point... if this was Disabled lives matter, there wouldnt be an issue and no one would say a word. You know if=t as does everyone on this thread that's against taking the knee. Its THIS topic that deep down makes you all angry and determined to not let it be.

Shameful.

Edited by Iron Curtain
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1 hour ago, Iron Curtain said:

I'm afraid this doesn't wash... its like saying that we shouldn't tackle any individual crime classifications unless we can get rid of them all.

Its like saying we shouldn't stop a particular drug hitting the market unless we can stop them all.

Absolutely we should attack areas where inequality has become disproportionate, any improvement is better than nothing.

Sorry but that is rubbish.

If you apply the law equally to all you are on the road to equality...... if the law is wrong change the law..... if the enforcement of the law is wrong change the enforcers, make them accountable.

Would you advocate a proportional increase in the abuse of none black people to make it equal?

The fact that police are abusing people is the problem. The fact they are abusing more black people is a consequence of the problem. Take away the problem.

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1 hour ago, Iron Curtain said:

 

If that is the genuine view then as previously stated... Someone sleeping with their best mates wife is technically something you can do... but as a decent human beings we hopefully have something inbuilt in us that hopefully means we try and do the decent thing.

Are you serious?

Why just your best friends wife? Why not anyone's wife, partner, husband?

That inbuilt inhibitor you think humans should have is the weakest part of humans. Made weaker by the other frailties we have.

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7 minutes ago, geosname said:

 

The fact that police are abusing people is the problem. The fact they are abusing more black people is a consequence of the problem. Take away the problem.

 

14 minutes ago, geosname said:

 

The fact that police are abusing people is the problem. The fact they are abusing more black people is a consequence of the problem. Take away the problem.

Yeah thats right...Stop policing the capital for a month and let em get on with it, defund the police.

Do you have any idea how many black kids get killed in London alone every night ?

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