Taking the knee.

[Paul6754]

8 hours ago, Joe B said:

Did type a massive answer out but then realised it was me defending the claim that 'people should read books' and that 'people should research and provide evidence for their argument and not trot out cliches they've read in the paper that have no basis in fact'.

Calling the knee 'Marxist' displays a fundamental lack of understanding of both the symbol itself and Marxism as a political/economic/social theory. The person behind it clearly has no idea what Marxism is, or how it could be tenuously linked to BLM (one tweet years ago from a co-founder that can't, in any way, be thought to be representative of the entire group who believe in the concept of Black Lives Matter, and has a strong whiff of cancel culture about it). 

My plea was for people to please read about Marxism/the issues at hand before they deploy such an obviously untrue statement. 

Arrogant, I know. 

The vast majority of football fans would support the statement "Black lives Matter" as they would the statement "All Lives Matter".

However, taking a knee has become synonymous with support for the Black Lives Matter Organization, a dangerous, radical, left wing movement whose supporters have shown over the last 6 years they will will loot, engage in violent protest and commit violent crime none of which helps the lives of black people or their communities.

The BLM movement was founded on a fallacy that USA police are racist, the crime data suggests otherwise, the data/video from Heather Macdonald explains this succinctly.

Two of the BLM founders have described themselves as trained Marxists (Are we suppose not to believe them) and they include in the aims/beliefs of the BLM movement disruption of the nuclear family, destruction of capitalism and the western way of life (or words to that effect) and defunding the police, again all actions which will not help black people or their communities.

Its ironic that footballers and other sportsmen, some of whom are wealthy and live a lifestyle beyond their wildest dreams, protest by taking a knee in support of BLM at the very economic system/way of life that has provided them with their riches, I doubt most of them know what BLM is about. 

I support kicking racism out of football, I don't support the organization Black Lives Matter and it's time to stop taking the knee.

 

[philmpv]

I do think that a lot of the angst against BLM could have easily been avoided by the addition of a simple 3 letter word at the end of their name - 'too'. Your average person on the street, wrongly, interprets BLM as BLM more. Which of course they don't. I'm not against anyone taking the knee if that's how they want to show their support, but I don't think that anybody will be surprised when fans are allowed back in grounds that some will boo, whether to show their displeasure at what they see as a political statement being forced upon them or simply some because they are racist. I'd be surprised if it carried on for long after crowds are allowed back in personally

[toyahw]

Wouldn't do it myself.  Bust knee to start off with. If others want to no problem. Certainly would not boo about it. But would not like to feel pressured over it either. Like, if you don't you are a racist? Not true.

[Andyregs]

Reeeeeeeee every source I don’t agree with is biased left wing rags....stop the steal....raaaaaa...

oh here’s a source from pragerU.

lol

[Joe B]

11 hours ago, Norfolk Enclue said:

I actually envy your assertiveness Joe. Mostly I'm in agreement with your posts, occasionally I disagree. Either way I enjoy reading them. I don't write too many opinions on OVF as I have Norfolk Enclue regarding the various subjects raised. As thick as pig poo if you will. However if you find anything that I post that you're contrary to, there'll be no need to be " overly combative" with me, especially after having supported the Vale for over 50 years, my nerves are shot to ribbons.  

 

UTV

Appreciate it. One day people will realise I chat as much sh** as everyone else on here, I just say my opinions with more confidence. 

[Joe B]

3 hours ago, Paul6754 said:

The vast majority of football fans would support the statement "Black lives Matter" as they would the statement "All Lives Matter".

However, taking a knee has become synonymous with support for the Black Lives Matter Organization, a dangerous, radical, left wing movement whose supporters have shown over the last 6 years they will will loot, engage in violent protest and commit violent crime none of which helps the lives of black people or their communities.

The BLM movement was founded on a fallacy that USA police are racist, the crime data suggests otherwise, the data/video from Heather Macdonald explains this succinctly.

Two of the BLM founders have described themselves as trained Marxists (Are we suppose not to believe them) and they include in the aims/beliefs of the BLM movement disruption of the nuclear family, destruction of capitalism and the western way of life (or words to that effect) and defunding the police, again all actions which will not help black people or their communities.

Its ironic that footballers and other sportsmen, some of whom are wealthy and live a lifestyle beyond their wildest dreams, protest by taking a knee in support of BLM at the very economic system/way of life that has provided them with their riches, I doubt most of them know what BLM is about. 

I support kicking racism out of football, I don't support the organization Black Lives Matter and it's time to stop taking the knee.

 

Ok, will attempt to engage with your points in turn.

BLM protests have been 93% peaceful (source: https://time.com/5886348/report-peaceful-protests/). Whilst every single protest is going to face some numpties more focused on causing trouble (and we can point to those Churchill statue defences over the summer for evidence of all political persuasions facing the same issue), the vast majority of people who support the cause are peaceful and law-abiding. It is a myth that BLM are focused on violence.

I'm afraid I disagree with your second point to; the US police has had racist elements to it since inception (https://www.newstatesman.com/world/north-america/2020/06/history-america-s-racist-police-slave-patrols-present). We can go back to events like Rodney King as evidence, even before the issues we've seen in the 2010s. Academic studies have shown police brutality to be the leading cause of death for young, male ethnic minorities in the US, and there is a far higher chance of them facing violence than their white peers do (https://www.pnas.org/content/116/34/16793). Now, a counter-argument is often that African-Americans commit more crime proportionally, but that leads us down the messy path of poorer education and lower incomes that has been an issue for their communities as a result of historic, systemic discrimination preventing their ancestors from accumulating capital, and is best saved for another thread. It is incorrect, in my view, to assert the police in the US do not have racism issues within it.

I've said before; tarring anyone who follows the beliefs of BLM with some tweets of its founders is silly. It is akin to saying every Conservative voter shares the views of every Conservative leader, instead of the more accurate view that they probably share some views but not all, and the leader just happens to be the leader of the Party closest to their views. There is BLM the political organisation, and then the concept of 'Black Lives Matter', which is separate. Whilst the BLM group can be considered at the vanguard of the movement, the views of its leader (in old tweets) cannot be extended to Leon Legge. 

I really don't like the 'black men have made it in sports, they should be thankful to the system!' argument. So, if some young black men make it as a result of incredible hard work and talent in a certain, that's supposed to be enough evidence to conclude that there are no systemic barriers in other fields? Or that the police aren't disproportionately violent towards ethnic minorities? Just because you make money doesn't mean you have to wash your hands of all injustice. There is still a pay gap between ethnic minorities and white people in the UK, of 2.3% (this is much better, as not long ago it is 8.4%). https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/earningsandworkinghours/articles/ethnicitypaygapsingreatbritain/2019#:~:text=In 2019%2C the median hourly,in 2014%2C at . Just because very successful young men like Rashford and Sterling make a lot of money (as they are literally in the top 0.0001% of what they do), doesn't mean the average person doesn't face issues.

Finally, Will Whit is a well-known right-wing Youtuber. The data presented in that video is very selective and skewed, with most academic research suggesting the opposite to the core argument.

I can get not liking 'BLM' the political organisation, but the knee dates back to the Civil Rights Movement of the 1960s, and was popularised by Colin Kaepernick choosing to kneel instead of stand during the National Anthem in NFL games (to demonstrate that he felt America needed to work on racial equality, and not from an affinity with the socio-economic theories of a German 19th century philosopher). 

I am no fan of BLM the organisation, am not a member, and would not identify myself as a follower.

However, I believe there is still work to be done with regards to racial equality in the West, and if footballers wish to use their platform for 8 seconds to keep those issues at the forefront of debate, then they're not doing anyone any harm, not causing any problems, and therefore have my support. 

 

[Andyregs]

7 minutes ago, Joe B said:

Ok, will attempt to engage with your points in turn.

BLM protests have been 93% peaceful (source: https://time.com/5886348/report-peaceful-protests/). Whilst every single protest is going to face some numpties more focused on causing trouble (and we can point to those Churchill statue defences over the summer for evidence of all political persuasions facing the same issue), the vast majority of people who support the cause are peaceful and law-abiding. It is a myth that BLM are focused on violence.

I'm afraid I disagree with your second point to; the US police has had racist elements to it since inception (https://www.newstatesman.com/world/north-america/2020/06/history-america-s-racist-police-slave-patrols-present). We can go back to events like Rodney King as evidence, even before the issues we've seen in the 2010s. Academic studies have shown police brutality to be the leading cause of death for young, male ethnic minorities in the US, and there is a far higher chance of them facing violence than their white peers do (https://www.pnas.org/content/116/34/16793). Now, a counter-argument is often that African-Americans commit more crime proportionally, but that leads us down the messy path of poorer education and lower incomes that has been an issue for their communities as a result of historic, systemic discrimination preventing their answers from accumulating capital, and is best saved for another thread. It is incorrect, in my view, to assert the police in the US do not have racism issues within it.

I've said before; tarring anyone who follows the beliefs of BLM with some tweets of its founders is silly. It is akin to saying every Conservative voter shares the views of every Conservative leader. There is BLM the political organisation, and then the concept of 'Black Lives Matter', which is separate. Whilst the BLM group can be considered at the vanguard of the movement, the views of its leader (in old tweets) cannot be extended to Leon Legge.

I really don't like the 'black men have made it in sports, they should be thankful to the system!' argument. So, if some young black men make it as a result of incredible hard work and talent in a certain, that's supposed to be enough evidence to conclude that there are no systemic barriers in other fields? Or that the police are disproportionately violent towards ethnic minorities? Just because you make money doesn't mean you have to wash your hands of all injustice.

Finally, Will Whit is a well-known right-wing Youtuber. The data presented in that video is very selective and skewed, with most academic research suggesting the opposite to the core argument.

I can get not liking 'BLM' the political organisation, but the knee dates back to the Civil Rights Movement of the 1960s, and was popularised by Colin Kaepernick choosing to kneel instead of stand during the National Anthem in NFL games (to demonstrate that he felt America needed to work on things). 

I am no fan of BLM the organisation, am not a member, and would not identify myself as a follower.

However, I believe there is still work to be done with regards to racial equality in the West, and if footballers wish to use their platform for 8 seconds to keep those issues at the forefront of debate, then they're not doing anyone any harm, not causing any problems, and therefore have my support.

 

Good luck. He will just discount everything you say as radical left wing bias. Reality has a left wing bias these days. 
PragerU claimed hitler was a socialist and a globalist. Lol

[Doha]

10 minutes ago, Joe B said:

(source: https://time.com/5886348/report-peaceful-protests/).

(https://www.newstatesman.com/world/north-america/2020/06/history-america-s-racist-police-slave-patrols-present).

(https://www.pnas.org/content/116/34/16793).

 

Sources aren't allowed in Pauls la la land. He's not well. 

[dantheman]

for those questioning what taking the knee represents...

It represents equality. Making sure that everyone is the same regardless of what makes us different. 

[geosname]

20 minutes ago, dantheman said:

for those questioning what taking the knee represents...

It represents equality. Making sure that everyone is the same regardless of what makes us different. 

It depends how you interpret it. To me it represents bowing to a percieved higher authority.

Equality is a desirable target impossible to achieve.

[Joe B]

33 minutes ago, geosname said:

It depends how you interpret it. To me it represents bowing to a percieved higher authority.

Equality is a desirable target impossible to achieve.

It's not bowing to a higher authority.

Why is racial equality impossible to achieve?

[Guitar Ray]

17 minutes ago, Joe B said:

It's not bowing to a higher authority.

Why is racial equality impossible to achieve?

Because "equality", in the general sense , is impossible to acheive, due to the human condition, our inbuilt flaws.  Nature.

[Conrad]

1 hour ago, dantheman said:

for those questioning what taking the knee represents...

It represents equality. Making sure that everyone is the same regardless of what makes us different. 

I thought it was to symbolise how George Floyd died by having his neck knelt on for 9 minutes by a police officer.

[Fosse69]

Harry Kane`s View

 Harry Kane reveals why Premier League players feel it’s still important to take a knee before matches | The Independent

 

[Santa]

28 minutes ago, Conrad said:

I thought it was to symbolise how George Floyd died by having his neck knelt on for 9 minutes by a police officer.

Big Colin K was doing that ages before George Floyd was murdered.