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Taking the knee.


shian

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10 minutes ago, inner sanctum said:

If I was Chinese, Korean, Thai etc. or Indian, Pakistani, Sri Lankan etc. I would be very offended by anything associated with BLM - ALL LIVES MATTER!!

 

Such a weak weak argument.

Surely no one thinks this is a salient or clever point anymore do they?

“Save the rainforest” doesn’t mean we all hate Epping Forrest.

 

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Couldn't resist seeing the levels of ignorance on here.

I watched people racially abuse Exodus, hurling abuse and referencing his ethnicity for not performing well as a player. 

I heard the Vale fans use a vile racist slur in a game against Bradford, en masse. 

I heard a comment about 'all black players being lazy' on a half-time trip to the toilets in the Railway. I've heard the use of the 'p' word in conversation at the ground. I heard a prospective owner judged on the basis of being 'one of them, a bit thingy'.

If anyone is daft enough to think that racism doesn't exist in the Vale fanbase (and it's not just ours), they're either wilfully ignorant or so racist themselves they don't see the above as an issue. I don't think it's a majority, but it exists. 

If it's reached the point that you're still struggling to see that Black Lives Matter is about ensuring Black Lives Matter as much as other ethnicity's lives then you're choosing not to get it. It is not just about Black Lives; it's that White Lives aren't really in danger from police violence, so the aim is to ensure Black Lives are afforded the same level of security. Even in the UK, with a far better record than the US, black people are the only ethnicity who die in police custody at a higher rate than their proportion of the population (https://www.statista.com/statistics/1122775/deaths-in-police-custody-in-the-uk-2019-by-ethnicity/). 

If you still think it's about some form of 'Black Lives should matter more than the rest', of Port Vale players wanting to establish some form of black superiority, then you've built a cognitive wall and are hiding behind it, refusing to even engage with the truth of the matter as it challenges your misconceptions head on, and you can't handle it. 

If you're conflating a bad tweet from a co-founder of the political organisation that shares BLM's (the grassroots movement) name and therefore think everyone who agrees with the underlying ideas are Marxist, one, you don't know what Marxism is and two, you are choosing an easy excuse for ignorance. Think of it as labelling everyone who is against animal cruelty as sharing the exact same views as the founder of PETA. It's nonsensical. It's not a homogenous group. I guarantee you barely know what Marxism is.

If you think politics has no relation to football you're not really a football fan, and have no real engagement with what the game is all about; the two have been intertwined for decades, almost a century. Do some reading (this should be a good starter: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_football_and_politics). If you're a 'keep politics out of football' bloke, you're completely missing the point of football as one of the key social institutions, tying together our increasingly fractured society as it has done for generations.

If you think 8 seconds of kneeling, which has no impact on you at all, is getting tedious, you must object to the very principles that the knee stands for (or else why are you getting annoyed about something that's over inside 10 seconds?); a gesture dating back to the Civil Rights movement of the 1960s, of Martin Luther King and his fight for racial equality.

If you're not bothered, spend 8 seconds scrolling on your phone. It doesn't impact you. Who cares? You demand people protest peacefully, and then demand an end to that peaceful protest as you don't agree with it. You can't riot, and you can't kneel. Be aggrieved in silence, as I can't deal with differing opinions, I'm that hard-set in my ignorance. It's child-like. 

I get people may not be bothered, or may not care, but for people to be so virulently and aggressively opposed to an 8 second kneel, with a sole aim of keeping the issue in public consciousness, is so, so depressing. This is our football team ffs. 

It's a sad, sad time when you feel so out of kilter with your own fanbase. All 11 players knelt today. Our captain is a vocal supporter of the cause. 

I just pray that no Vale fan chooses to boo players of their own team. It will force a very difficult issue, in which I struggle to identify myself as 'Vale', sharing a ground and identity with people who would boo their own players for daring to kneel on an issue they deem important. 

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Just now, Dandy Highwayman said:

Im not racist its about keeping politics out of football. Well by that i mean any politics that i dont agree with. By the way that James McClean should be band and what about that Megan Markle shes got ideas above her station not that im racist like

Had me going for a second there mate.

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I don't have a problem with people taking the knee..... or not. It's their choice.

I don't have a problem with people objecting to people taking the knee...... or not..... as long as it's peaceful.  It's their choice.

It does cause a problem when people state "if you dont agree with me you are racist/homophobic/etc/etc/etc."

If you abandon free speech for any cause you lose everything.

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Even if a player doesn’t agree with the BLM political movement you won’t see a player not taking the knee, because of the media outcry where they will then accuse that player of being racist. That’s totally wrong. The way the media work and all these forced agendas on people are totally wrong. 

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6 minutes ago, PV1973 said:

Even if a player doesn’t agree with the BLM political movement you won’t see a player not taking the knee, because of the media outcry where they will then accuse that player of being racist. That’s totally wrong. The way the media work and all these forced agendas on people are totally wrong. 

I agree it should be personal choice, because it loses its meaning and power if it’s something you have to do. It’s exactly the same argument I used about wearing the poppy. Unsurprisingly, a lot of the people getting angry at people taking the knee are also the same people getting angry that people choose not to wear a poppy. People will come to their own conclusion why. 
Also from looking at recent games, some teams didn’t take the knee and some did, but the main criticism seemed to be for the booing. 

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7 hours ago, geosname said:

I don't have a problem with people taking the knee..... or not. It's their choice.

I don't have a problem with people objecting to people taking the knee...... or not..... as long as it's peaceful.  It's their choice.

It does cause a problem when people state "if you dont agree with me you are racist/homophobic/etc/etc/etc."

If you abandon free speech for any cause you lose everything.

Fair view on things...

What I can’t understand is the level of disagreement this topic is generating.

I can’t abide gambling advertising in football ... no one boos a team that come out wearing it.

Yet this issue which clearly has deep emotional importance to a number of our squad... then some of our fans have decided this is the issue they will boo and make it clear that they are unhappy.

It’s just a funny one that this is the issue that people think they will verbalise their disagreement to such a strong degree.

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8 hours ago, geosname said:

Strange comparison 

I agree it is a strange comparison. 
 

Im pushing the original posters view that football should be about football.

He has clearly stated that he doesn’t want “politics involved”... Now wearing the Poppy is different. And I 100% support it.

But Im testing whether it’s ACTUALLY about wanting football to be kept about football. I’d be keen to understand what can be introduced to football? What can’t?

 

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8 hours ago, Joe B said:

Couldn't resist seeing the levels of ignorance on here.

I watched people racially abuse Exodus, hurling abuse and referencing his ethnicity for not performing well as a player. 

I heard the Vale fans use a vile racist slur in a game against Bradford, en masse. 

I heard a comment about 'all black players being lazy' on a half-time trip to the toilets in the Railway. I've heard the use of the 'p' word in conversation at the ground. I heard a prospective owner judged on the basis of being 'one of them, a bit thingy'.

If anyone is daft enough to think that racism doesn't exist in the Vale fanbase (and it's not just ours), they're either wilfully ignorant or so racist themselves they don't see the above as an issue. I don't think it's a majority, but it exists. 

If it's reached the point that you're still struggling to see that Black Lives Matter is about ensuring Black Lives Matter as much as other ethnicity's lives then you're choosing not to get it. It is not just about Black Lives; it's that White Lives aren't really in danger from police violence, so the aim is to ensure Black Lives are afforded the same level of security. Even in the UK, with a far better record than the US, black people are the only ethnicity who die in police custody at a higher rate than their proportion of the population (https://www.statista.com/statistics/1122775/deaths-in-police-custody-in-the-uk-2019-by-ethnicity/). 

If you still think it's about some form of 'Black Lives should matter more than the rest', of Port Vale players wanting to establish some form of black superiority, then you've built a cognitive wall and are hiding behind it, refusing to even engage with the truth of the matter as it challenges your misconceptions head on, and you can't handle it. 

If you're conflating a bad tweet from a co-founder of the political organisation that shares BLM's (the grassroots movement) name and therefore think everyone who agrees with the underlying ideas are Marxist, one, you don't know what Marxism is and two, you are choosing an easy excuse for ignorance. Think of it as labelling everyone who is against animal cruelty as sharing the exact same views as the founder of PETA. It's nonsensical. It's not a homogenous group. I guarantee you barely know what Marxism is.

If you think politics has no relation to football you're not really a football fan, and have no real engagement with what the game is all about; the two have been intertwined for decades, almost a century. Do some reading (this should be a good starter: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_football_and_politics). If you're a 'keep politics out of football' bloke, you're completely missing the point of football as one of the key social institutions, tying together our increasingly fractured society as it has done for generations.

If you think 8 seconds of kneeling, which has no impact on you at all, is getting tedious, you must object to the very principles that the knee stands for (or else why are you getting annoyed about something that's over inside 10 seconds?); a gesture dating back to the Civil Rights movement of the 1960s, of Martin Luther King and his fight for racial equality.

If you're not bothered, spend 8 seconds scrolling on your phone. It doesn't impact you. Who cares? You demand people protest peacefully, and then demand an end to that peaceful protest as you don't agree with it. You can't riot, and you can't kneel. Be aggrieved in silence, as I can't deal with differing opinions, I'm that hard-set in my ignorance. It's child-like. 

I get people may not be bothered, or may not care, but for people to be so virulently and aggressively opposed to an 8 second kneel, with a sole aim of keeping the issue in public consciousness, is so, so depressing. This is our football team ffs. 

It's a sad, sad time when you feel so out of kilter with your own fanbase. All 11 players knelt today. Our captain is a vocal supporter of the cause. 

I just pray that no Vale fan chooses to boo players of their own team. It will force a very difficult issue, in which I struggle to identify myself as 'Vale', sharing a ground and identity with people who would boo their own players for daring to kneel on an issue they deem important. 

Brilliantly put. 

Im leaving this thread here. Reading the numerous threads that were on this wider topic before genuinely made me sad to see the way some people think about the issue.

This will just go round and round ... no one will change their minds. And I fear a number of people will never understand why they feel the way they do, nor admit it if they do.

I suggest, given the OP’s posting history this thread was set up just to cause friction.

I will leave it to you!

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1 hour ago, PV1973 said:

Even if a player doesn’t agree with the BLM political movement you won’t see a player not taking the knee, because of the media outcry where they will then accuse that player of being racist. That’s totally wrong. The way the media work and all these forced agendas on people are totally wrong. 

This is nonsense.

Vale have barely taken the knee this season. No one has accused them of anything.

You've made up some hypothetical and claimed it's 'totally wrong'. It hasn't happened. You're getting wound by up by something that has never existed.

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