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Labour responsible for unlawful acts of discrimination


Regal Beagle
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11 hours ago, Jacko51 said:

Agree about Mr H and agree about the chances of Labour winning an election with someone like Corbyn leading.  Just look what happened to the so called red wall in the last election.  It was a complete disaster.  Just look what happened in Stoke - when did we last have 3 Tory MPs in city? 

To win an election you have to appeal to the people not just the Party - has someone already said that?  We have only had a truly socialist government once - 45-51 - and the only real winner the Labour Party has had since then was Blair who was the prime mover in 13 years of Labour government.  Socialism - for all its good ideals - does not appeal to Middle England.  To bring out any sort of change in the UK you have to start in the centre.  I don't think Corbyn ever understood that.

I think it's unfair to place the majority of blame on Corbyn/ Socialism for what happened to the red wall seats. If you look at vote shares since the 90s, Labour's has steadily decreased. In Stoke North, since 1995, we went from 65% to 58% to 52%, to 44% to 39%. The only increase in the last 25 years was under Corbyn in 2017 when we got 50%, but then it slumped to 36% at the last election. That's a pattern you'll see throughout the 'red wall'; a sustained period of decline since the 90s, a rise in 2017, and then the previous downward trajectory continues and ends in defeat. We were within a whisker of winning in 2017 and I agree with John McDonnell when he says that if the campaign lasted a week longer, we'd have had them. For me, this (along with the positive polling for the majority of pledges in the 2019 manifesto) shows that there is appetite for real change and socialism. Imagine if Corbyn hadn't had to deal with resignations from the shadow bench the moment he became leader, if the press didn;t constantly print and broadcast lies about him, if he wasn't subject to the leadership coup, if he wasn't having his own workers plotting against him. Even with all that going on, as recently as 2018, Labour led the tories in the polls. And then Brexit became all-encompassing...

Edited by mr.hobblesworth

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If you look at polling before the 2017 election you’ll find that at no point in the weeks/months before hand did Corbyn get anywhere near May on the preferred Prime Minister polls. However attractive some policies may have been it was Corbyn who was the issue for many voters. I voted Labour through gritted teeth because I wanted the sitting MP to win, not because I wanted Corbyn as PM. He was undoubtedly popular with the Party faithful but he never convinced the electorate as a whole and, in my opinion, never would. 
 

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1 minute ago, Jacko51 said:

If you look at polling before the 2017 election you’ll find that at no point in the weeks/months before hand did Corbyn get anywhere near May on the preferred Prime Minister polls. 
 

And as soon as the rules came in during the 2017 election dictating that he and the party got equal and fair coverage, he soared and came very close to convincing the electorate as a whole. And that's when he'd been consistently undermined and lied about at an unprecedented level for the preceding two years.

I don't want to re-run the ins and outs of the Corbyn years but I feel so strongly that just because Corbyn failed (for whatever reason) it doesn't mean that we have to throw away any vestiges of socialism and revert to some bland slop from the centre. No-one seems to be arguing that the defeats in 2010 and 2015 means that centrism will never fly with the British electorate yet a socialist leader out performed both Brown and Miliband.

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49 minutes ago, mr.hobblesworth said:

And as soon as the rules came in during the 2017 election dictating that he and the party got equal and fair coverage, he soared and came very close to convincing the electorate as a whole. And that's when he'd been consistently undermined and lied about at an unprecedented level for the preceding two years.

I don't want to re-run the ins and outs of the Corbyn years but I feel so strongly that just because Corbyn failed (for whatever reason) it doesn't mean that we have to throw away any vestiges of socialism and revert to some bland slop from the centre. No-one seems to be arguing that the defeats in 2010 and 2015 means that centrism will never fly with the British electorate yet a socialist leader out performed both Brown and Miliband.

Labour lost in 2010 because they had been in power for 13 years. Same reason the Tories lost in 97. People want a change. Do you think Labour would have won in 2017 if they had the same manifesto but someone like Starmer had been in charge?

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I think we can't really draw any solid conclusions on whether the UK is open to socialist ideas based on the last few elections. It's difficult to say how many people voted for Labour in either of the last 2 elections because they wanted to avoid a tory brexit and how many people voted for the tories because they aligned with them on brexit and not much else?

 

I'm not convinced that the working class favours socialism. From an outsider looking in to the labour party, those pushing for socialist values are the liberal middle class, university types who are also pushing the woke agenda and not the ex-mining communities who pretty much just want a job and a democratic voice. That's my opinion and isn't particularly based on any hard evidence though.

 

 

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Don't forget Wilson who won 4 elections! He and Blair are the only ones to get Labour entrenched in government since 1951. I've discussed this before with Mr H and others but history shows that the electorate will sometimes vote for a centre-left party but not an extreme left one. Labour got nowhere with Foot, a man of great principle, but not a PM in waiting. It was a shame John Smith did not live longer.

The last election was really a Brexit election and that single factor dominated most of the debate. Once Farage and his extreme right wingers threw their hat into the ring with Johnson then the die was cast. Gross stupidity from Swinson to opt for an election. I would not read much into it, Brexit apart, but there was no doubt that Corbyn wasn't by then an asset.

Corbyn did well for a while as he was opposing austerity that decimated public services and the welfare state. He should have thrived under those circumstances. And, for a while, he did.

Labour has always fought itself and the left-right struggle in the party has always gone on, back as far as the fifties. A large chunk of activists would rather see themselves as just that rather than get behind a more central platform that would be more popular with southern England. The socio-economic make up of the UK is not what it was. That isn't to say that poverty has disappeared; clearly it hasn't. But blue collar workers and trade unionists are not as numerous as they once were and Labour's traditional voters have been decreasing in number as people become better off and like to think of themselves as lower middle class.

Corbyn should have kept quiet, accepted the findings of the report, and taken his medicine. But instead he decided to continue arguing the toss and has brought it on himself as well as damaging the Party once again. 

Unfortunately, a bit like the US, we haven't had a great choice in recent elections and honesty and integrity seem in short supply.

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2 hours ago, mr.hobblesworth said:

 Imagine if Corbyn hadn't had to deal with resignations from the shadow bench the moment he became leader, if the press didn;t constantly print and broadcast lies about him, if he wasn't subject to the leadership coup, if he wasn't having his own workers plotting against him. Even with all that going on, as recently as 2018, Labour led the tories in the polls. And then Brexit became all-encompassing...

Imagine if he hadn't visited a reath laying ceremony, spent time talking to terrorists, everyone agreed with him, his brexit policy was understandable, the manifesto wasn't longer than war and peace, it was affordable and he was a charismatic get up and go guy....... I think Labour would have still lost..... just not as heavily.

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1 hour ago, TheSage said:

Don't forget Wilson who won 4 elections! 

But two of them were only 18 months after the previous election remember.  And Wilson lost in 1970 despite all those new 18 year olds voting and Labour having a double digit lead in the polls. 

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3 hours ago, mr.hobblesworth said:

I think it's unfair to place the majority of blame on Corbyn/ Socialism for what happened to the red wall seats. If you look at vote shares since the 90s, Labour's has steadily decreased. In Stoke North, since 1995, we went from 65% to 58% to 52%, to 44% to 39%. The only increase in the last 25 years was under Corbyn in 2017 when we got 50%, but then it slumped to 36% at the last election. That's a pattern you'll see throughout the 'red wall'; a sustained period of decline since the 90s, a rise in 2017, and then the previous downward trajectory continues and ends in defeat. We were within a whisker of winning in 2017 and I agree with John McDonnell when he says that if the campaign lasted a week longer, we'd have had them. For me, this (along with the positive polling for the majority of pledges in the 2019 manifesto) shows that there is appetite for real change and socialism. Imagine if Corbyn hadn't had to deal with resignations from the shadow bench the moment he became leader, if the press didn;t constantly print and broadcast lies about him, if he wasn't subject to the leadership coup, if he wasn't having his own workers plotting against him. Even with all that going on, as recently as 2018, Labour led the tories in the polls. And then Brexit became all-encompassing...

I really hope the Labour Party thinks like you because that will mean I will never again have to suffer a Labour Party in Government 

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3 hours ago, Jacko51 said:

Do you think Labour would have won in 2017 if they had the same manifesto but someone like Starmer had been in charge?

It's hard to say but personally I don't think so. We would have gained from some people but not picked up so many from those (especially the young) that really liked JC. I think Corbyn was a real asset during that campaign. I still remember people lining the streets at rallies, climbing trees to get a better view of him, and that gave us such momentum. I don't think Starmer (or a more staid politician) would have had the same effect and I think that optimistic, hopeful manifesto called for a Corbyn-esque approach, if that makes sense.

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27 minutes ago, mr.hobblesworth said:

It's hard to say but personally I don't think so. We would have gained from some people but not picked up so many from those (especially the young) that really liked JC. I think Corbyn was a real asset during that campaign. I still remember people lining the streets at rallies, climbing trees to get a better view of him, and that gave us such momentum. I don't think Starmer (or a more staid politician) would have had the same effect and I think that optimistic, hopeful manifesto called for a Corbyn-esque approach, if that makes sense.

The problem with judging his support by those attending his rallies is that he was preaching to the converted. It was, for want of a better word, middle England he needed to persuade. It’s like all these lions who turn up to Trump’s superspreader events - they would vote for Trump if he shot their granny. 

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7 minutes ago, Jacko51 said:

The problem with judging his support by those attending his rallies is that he was preaching to the converted. It was, for want of a better word, middle England he needed to persuade. It’s like all these lions who turn up to Trump’s superspreader events - they would vote for Trump if he shot their granny. 

And many of them would have been on probation and unable to vote 😂 - feel free to decide if I'm talking US/UK 😂

Edited by Regal Beagle

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19 hours ago, The_godfather said:

So, just to clarify for everyone based on this thread, Starmer should:

  • Back Corbyn because the report doesn't call him anti-semitic
  • Expel Corbyn because he refuses to acknowledge the serious nature of the report findings on anti-semitism
  • Explain why he didn't speak out against anti-semitism previously enough
  • Also explain why he is speaking out against anti-semitism now
  • Explain why Corbyn has been ejected
  • Criticise the government
  • Back the government
  • Appease the left to ensure unity within Labour
  • Root out those in the left that are still seeking confrontation

I hope he trained at the circus, because that's some juggling act.

It is this level of political intelligence in Stoke that landed them 3 Tory MP's who could not care less about Stoke, they hate Labour because Labour made things better for the city improved incomes etc. We have a bumbling Prime Minister who has used more racists remarks than any politician I can recall, but it is Ok because of Brexit. 

 

These posts just show the finger pointing against Labour and the straw clutching they do. Venomous hate towards a Labour party that would improve things for the area, love for a Conservative party that will cause more harm. 

 

I guess though the Tory mps love to have a photo shoot around the city. 

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