Transfer Rumours Pre-Season

[Smallthorne Dog]

We need to set up a development squad with the money saved off the budget to try and push through some good young cheap talent because at the moment nothing is coming through the youth set up as all the good players are going to premier league clubs at an early age. I think most of the 3 or 4 lads sold would have been turning pro this year instead we signed zero

Presumably that will be Frank Sinclair's role.

[Santa]

It's already been said before, but there are too many well established and better funded academies in our local area and/or within radius. We need to look at how we can be smarter.

There has been an orthodoxy about youth development in football that is slowly starting to be challenged. I'm not saying we should necessarily go down the same road as Huddersfield and Brentford, but they're interesting case studies.

I don't know how much it costs to run the academy but if you're getting your best players poached at 16 for boss all under the EPPP then you have to start questioning what is viable.

[Joe B]

34 minutes ago, Santa said:

It's already been said before, but there are too many well established and better funded academies in our local area and/or within radius. We need to look at how we can be smarter.

There has been an orthodoxy about youth development in football that is slowly starting to be challenged. I'm not saying we should necessarily go down the same road as Huddersfield and Brentford, but they're interesting case studies.

I don't know how much it costs to run the academy but if you're getting your best players poached at 16 for boss all under the EPPP then you have to start questioning what is viable.

Spot on. We haven't a prayer against Utd, City, Liverpool, Everton, and Crewe (the likes of Derby and Forest pick up Stoke-based players too).

Even if we do win the recruitment race, EPPP allows clubs to sign players for relative pittance at very young ages.

We simply aren't going to be able to consistently produce first-team quality saleable assets. We might get the likes of Gibbons and Smith through but they're the first two in a decade and, whilst I love them both dearly, not the sexy players who stand to make us massive dollar.

We do stand out in terms of offering a good home with good coaching for players booted out by the aforementioned academies at 18. We've got stability in management, a designated coach for players approaching first-team age, and are known to look after our players. We're easily commutable from a lot of cities.

With the links we've got at Forest, and hopefully some through Sinclair, we should be aware of players who haven't made it due to injuries, bad luck etc. Task one of the scouts with watching academy games, with eyes on those lads out of contract soon/not expected to make it. Bring in 10 of these, give them 2 years to prove themselves, guaranteeing them a steady wage and some non-footballing qualifications through our partnership with Staffs Uni, and if one of them is good enough, the entire enterprise is worth it. Worst case, you're giving 10ish young lad with no direction a chance and some options.

Jordan Hugill was knocking around the 9th tier of football with no fitness; Andoh was playing football in Cyprus. These overlooked players are out there. They fall through the cracks. We released Charlie Raglan and he's gone on to make a steady lower league career for himself.

We should obviously retain the academy as by all accounts Sevvy Aslam does a great job and its great to have Smith, Gibbons, Campbell-Gordon knocking around the first team. However, the concept of producing locally-born lads for the first-team and flipping them for a profit is largely dead in the water for a club like ours.

 

 

[Boslem's Brazil]

1 hour ago, Joe B said:

Spot on. We haven't a prayer against Utd, City, Liverpool, Everton, and Crewe (the likes of Derby and Forest pick up Stoke-based players too).

Even if we do win the recruitment race, EPPP allows clubs to sign players for relative pittance at very young ages.

We simply aren't going to be able to consistently produce first-team quality saleable assets. We might get the likes of Gibbons and Smith through but they're the first two in a decade and, whilst I love them both dearly, not the sexy players who stand to make us massive dollar.

We do stand out in terms of offering a good home with good coaching for players booted out by the aforementioned academies at 18. We've got stability in management, a designated coach for players approaching first-team age, and are known to look after our players. We're easily commutable from a lot of cities.

With the links we've got at Forest, and hopefully some through Sinclair, we should be aware of players who haven't made it due to injuries, bad luck etc. Task one of the scouts with watching academy games, with eyes on those lads out of contract soon/not expected to make it. Bring in 10 of these, give them 2 years to prove themselves, guaranteeing them a steady wage and some non-footballing qualifications through our partnership with Staffs Uni, and if one of them is good enough, the entire enterprise is worth it. Worst case, you're giving 10ish young lad with no direction a chance and some options.

Jordan Hugill was knocking around the 9th tier of football with no fitness; Andoh was playing football in Cyprus. These overlooked players are out there. They fall through the cracks. We released Charlie Raglan and he's gone on to make a steady lower league career for himself.

We should obviously retain the academy as by all accounts Sevvy Aslam does a great job and its great to have Smith, Gibbons, Campbell-Gordon knocking around the first team. However, the concept of producing locally-born lads for the first-team and flipping them for a profit is largely dead in the water for a club like ours.

 

 

Hypothetically, do you think that would still be the case in 3-5 years if we were an established league 1 club pushing for promotion to the Championship? 

[Doha]

24 minutes ago, Boslem's Brazil said:

Hypothetically, do you think that would still be the case in 3-5 years if we were an established league 1 club pushing for promotion to the Championship? 

I do. It’s a question of academy status. The EPPP system is yet another chasm between the greed league and the rest of the pyramid.

Why pour 10 years and a lot of money, effort and resources into a kid now when Petroleum United will rock up and, fully legally, steal him for an utter pittance? 

It’s pointless. Everyone is basically a premiership feeder club now by way of gun to the head robbery. Another brilliant victory for Greg Dyke and Rick Parry. 

[PV1973]

The days of producing any kid and selling him for millions are long gone for the majority of lower league clubs, who now have to rely on sell on fees and appearance clauses. This is because the premier league basically held the lower league clubs to ransom when introducing the EPPP system a few years back which resulted in the set (and possibly lower) compensations fees for the club developing the player.

We were close under Bratt to having the academy closed purely because at the time the cost was deemed to be outweighing its productivity. I'm sure a figure of around 300k a year was quoted back then. To be fair until we brought Gibbo and Smith through we hadn't produced anyone for years who would look like establishing themselves as a regular.

There could be a multitude of reasons why that is. But IMO a lot of it is down to the scouting power of the bigger clubs and the sheer number of players they are stockpiling in the u23 and u18 set ups. On the flipside though when they are getting rid of players at u16 level, (those that aren't offered a scholarship), then this is a good opportunity for lower league clubs to pick up some potential gems.

Arguably theres also a case to be made for freshening up our coaching staff too. Having ex players in like Dodds would help . In the recent past Glover, Gareth Owen and McPhee were good additions and even getting current players like Worral involved is a good thing too. But even at academy coaching level we have lost coaches to bigger clubs too. Considering the changes we've made in the managerial dept I'm surprised that our u18 set up has been stable for a few years no.

Also we just may not have the required quality of players either. I know that in some years we've had high hopes for a batch of players and then we've had years where none of them looked like getting near a scholarship (as happened with this last group last season).

[Doha]

We do have a bit of a thing at Vale with ex-players. It hasn't been terribly successful.

However.

I don't know if he's had the foresight to do his badges but in 2/3 years when he decides to stop, keeping Popey around as a coach could add a huge amount of value to the training set up. It's good to have characters at the club, managers sign players all the time thinking they'll just be good to have in the dressing room. I don't think you could find another forward in England with superior heading accuracy, he could be a huge asset for the foundation and the academy.

With the highway robbery that EPPP sanctions, keeping it 'local' like that may be the only way. As PV1973 even staff get poached too.  

[JRC]

Vale have really been quite poor at developing players for a long time. Since the 80s its really very few player have gone on to have long EFL careers only:

Robbie Earle (Stoke City at U16)

Steve Harper

Andy Porter

Billy Paynter (from Liverpool but with us from 10)

Stevie Rowlands 

Ant Gardner 

Luke Prosser (Spurs U16)

Sam Morsy (Wolves U16)

Nathan Smith

James Gibbons

A few goalies who played a bit for us before dropping to non-league.

So about a third were cast offs from other clubs (smart recruitment?) Overall its a player every 4 years. This issue started a long time before academies came into being. Crewe was a big issue, although we went down the route of signing and improving part ready players Crewe went for bringing young players through. Stoke also have an atrocious record over that time considering the size of club and the resources they have spent on it. It seems to be getting a little better as Smith and Gibbons are quite close in age. Its not just down to recent changes by the EFL. Some of it is about culture when attracting players, supporters not getting on their backs when they make mistakes and within the club itself.

 

[philmpv]

We do have a bit of a thing at Vale with ex-players. It hasn't been terribly successful.
However.
I don't know if he's had the foresight to do his badges but in 2/3 years when he decides to stop, keeping Popey around as a coach could add a huge amount of value to the training set up. It's good to have characters at the club, managers sign players all the time thinking they'll just be good to have in the dressing room. I don't think you could find another forward in England with superior heading accuracy, he could be a huge asset for the foundation and the academy.
With the highway robbery that EPPP sanctions, keeping it 'local' like that may be the only way. As PV1973 even staff get poached too.  

I knew it wouldn't be long before somebody advocated for Pope to be offered a coaching role, such is the seeming reluctance to say goodbye to players at this Club. What qualifies him for a coaching role? His ability to scream at and completely undermine the young players that he plays alongside? His professionalism on all things social media?

[PV1973]

Did Smith get released from Stokes academy or have I dreamt that? Talking of Stoke I'm pretty certain that their record for producing players is even worse than ours, despite the money they pump in to it.

Ultimately it takes time as well. Crewes academy has been decent for a lot of years now, over 30,  ours hasn't. But surely there has to come a cut off point where it starts to get questioned?

[PV1973]

9 minutes ago, philmpv said:

50 minutes ago, Doha said:

We do have a bit of a thing at Vale with ex-players. It hasn't been terribly successful.
However.
I don't know if he's had the foresight to do his badges but in 2/3 years when he decides to stop, keeping Popey around as a coach could add a huge amount of value to the training set up. It's good to have characters at the club, managers sign players all the time thinking they'll just be good to have in the dressing room. I don't think you could find another forward in England with superior heading accuracy, he could be a huge asset for the foundation and the academy.
With the highway robbery that EPPP sanctions, keeping it 'local' like that may be the only way. As PV1973 even staff get poached too.  

I knew it wouldn't be long before somebody advocated for Pope to be offered a coaching role, such is the seeming reluctance to say goodbye to players at this Club. What qualifies him for a coaching role? His ability to scream at and completely undermine the young players that he plays alongside? His professionalism on all things social media?

I'm not saying that every ex-pro would automatically make a great coach, but I'm certain that hundreds of professional games, hundreds of goals and a career as one of the best target men in the lower leagues would stand him in good stead. If my lad was a striker and at Vales academy I would love the chance to coached by a player like him whos actually done it. Believe it or not, having ex pros on the books as coaches is a good selling point for academies when you're trying to convince kids to sign. Because straight away you can see that these players have done something and made a career for themselves.

[Doha]

5 minutes ago, PV1973 said:

I'm not saying that every ex-pro would automatically make a great coach, but I'm certain that hundreds of professional games, hundreds of goals and a career as one of the best target men in the lower leagues would stand him in good stead. If my lad was a striker and at Vales academy I would love the chance to coached by a player like him whos actually done it. Believe it or not, having ex pros on the books as coaches is a good selling point for academies when you're trying to convince kids to sign. Because straight away you can see that these players have done something and made a career for themselves.

Exactly.

Phil has been on a weird anti Pope campaign for quite a while.

https://www.onevalefan.co.uk/forum/search/?&q=pope&author=philmpv&search_and_or=or&sortby=relevancy

[philmpv]

Ah, the usual accusation of 'Pope bashing' when somebody dares question his value to the team/ability/professionalism. I have my opinions as do you. I'm not 'anti-Pope'. If he was banging them in, or playing well, I'd be all for him. He wasn't and he hasn't for a good while. JA luckily has recognised this and was the first to look beyond Pope, resulting in us as a team becoming much more aesthetically pleasing as well as finishing on the verge of the playoffs.

Exactly.
Phil has been on a weird anti Pope campaign for quite a while.
https://www.onevalefan.co.uk/forum/search/?&q=pope&author=philmpv&search_and_or=or&sortby=relevancy

[PV1973]

17 minutes ago, philmpv said:

Ah, the usual accusation of 'Pope bashing' when somebody dares question his value to the team/ability/professionalism. I have my opinions as do you. I'm not 'anti-Pope'. If he was banging them in, or playing well, I'd be all for him. He wasn't and he hasn't for a good while. JA luckily has recognised this and was the first to look beyond Pope, resulting in us as a team becoming much more aesthetically pleasing as well as finishing on the verge of the playoffs.

Other than derailing a thread for an obvious agenda, it all has nothing to do with the discussion of ex players as coaches. 

[Valiant in Brum]

Other than derailing a thread for an obvious agenda, it all has nothing to do with the discussion of ex players as coaches. 

Or transfer rumours.