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Black Lives Matter


Joe B

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9 minutes ago, philpvfc said:

Don’t disagree with the statue being removed but not the way it was. It was due to be reviewed about now anyway with last time it was put to the vote there was a small majority to have the statue remain. I hope those who did it get charged but will be surprised if they do and they will be martyrs to many if they are anyway.

Good riddance to it. Jimmy saville did a lot of charity work but I wouldn’t want a statue of him up either.

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as a first off, i'm not a racist, but I don't agree with censoring history, most of Britains ports Liverpool, Bristol, Glasgow,London, had  part in slavery, wrongly it was  a industry as was any of the industrial revolution, with such things as child labour, but it was a norm for those times. We can't judge people from those times by todays standards, we've learned our mistakes from history. so why are we still paying for them, is this still pc gone mad?

   The statue of Colston  yesterday ok he made money from slaves but he passed some on to schools and hospitals in Bristol, as did the trade in Liverpool, where the citys prosperity came from the reinvestment of the proceeds, google it theres connections all over Liverpool, stone carvings of slave ships on the port of Liverpool building, Penny lane's name is from James Penny a slave trader, so do we sanitise all connections? should we burn the book  Uncle Toms cabin? we all know where that leads?, ban "Showboat" that shows slaves,

  Lastly I've been watching the protests from all over the world and no doubt , George Flynn was murdered by the police, and  in the states the Afro-americans escpecially are subjected to very heavy handed treatment, from a militarised police who seem uncontrollable, but after 3 memorials and all the other hype, when will he be canonised?

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I can't believe I'm using a Channel 4 source but I broadly agree with this - https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-black-americans-commit-crime

 

I don't think it's as simple as some commentators are suggesting, that present day racism in the US police system is responsible for a disproportionate amount of black people being killed at the hands of cops. There is evidence that it is not disproportionate when you factor in crime rates and particularly socio-economic factors.

I think the first place to look would be at the historical racism suffered by the black community post-slavery which has clearly resulted in many communities being amongst the poorest in society, rather than police actively murdering black people because of their skin colour.

 

My two-pronged attack on trying to address the issue would be to try and lift these communities out of poverty and secondly, to try and remedy why the US police force are so quick to use lethal force. I saw a stat that around 50 US police were killed in the line of duty last year but they killed around 1,000. That number is frighteningly high in any remotely civilised country, nevermind the richest and supposedly freest country in the world.

Neither are easy especially given the issue of gun ownership being so polarizing.

 

That being said, I'm not sure the protests in the UK are proportionate, especially spanning multiple days with seemingly increasing levels of violence. They have apparently morophed from a solidarity thing to an attack on our Police force, which has many faults but are pretty good when it comes to not killing unnarmed citizens I think.

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8 minutes ago, Davebrad said:

as a first off, i'm not a racist, but I don't agree with censoring history, most of Britains ports Liverpool, Bristol, Glasgow,London, had  part in slavery, wrongly it was  a industry as was any of the industrial revolution, with such things as child labour, but it was a norm for those times. We can't judge people from those times by todays standards, we've learned our mistakes from history. so why are we still paying for them, is this still pc gone mad?

   The statue of Colston  yesterday ok he made money from slaves but he passed some on to schools and hospitals in Bristol, as did the trade in Liverpool, where the citys prosperity came from the reinvestment of the proceeds, google it theres connections all over Liverpool, stone carvings of slave ships on the port of Liverpool building, Penny lane's name is from James Penny a slave trader, so do we sanitise all connections? should we burn the book  Uncle Toms cabin? we all know where that leads?, ban "Showboat" that shows slaves,

  Lastly I've been watching the protests from all over the world and no doubt , George Flynn was murdered by the police, and  in the states the Afro-americans escpecially are subjected to very heavy handed treatment, from a militarised police who seem uncontrollable, but after 3 memorials and all the other hype, when will he be canonised?

I’d say there is a difference between a street name and a statue. Literally putting the man on a pedestal as virtuous. It sends a message. And I don’t agree with us benefiting from the slave trade is a reasonable justification. If the statue was in a museum, then that would be history. Lots of countries have awful histories, look at Germany. I don’t see any nazi statues standing though. Some things don’t deserve commemorating. 

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11 minutes ago, Davebrad said:

as a first off, i'm not a racist, but I don't agree with censoring history, most of Britains ports Liverpool, Bristol, Glasgow,London, had  part in slavery, wrongly it was  a industry as was any of the industrial revolution, with such things as child labour, but it was a norm for those times. We can't judge people from those times by todays standards, we've learned our mistakes from history. so why are we still paying for them, is this still pc gone mad?

   The statue of Colston  yesterday ok he made money from slaves but he passed some on to schools and hospitals in Bristol, as did the trade in Liverpool, where the citys prosperity came from the reinvestment of the proceeds, google it theres connections all over Liverpool, stone carvings of slave ships on the port of Liverpool building, Penny lane's name is from James Penny a slave trader, so do we sanitise all connections? should we burn the book  Uncle Toms cabin? we all know where that leads?, ban "Showboat" that shows slaves,

  Lastly I've been watching the protests from all over the world and no doubt , George Flynn was murdered by the police, and  in the states the Afro-americans escpecially are subjected to very heavy handed treatment, from a militarised police who seem uncontrollable, but after 3 memorials and all the other hype, when will he be canonised?

Jimmy Saville gave loads of money to a hospital too.

Personally, and this is purely my view, but I would be ok with there being no “Showboat” if it meant equality for everyone. But that’s just my point of view! 

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19 minutes ago, Davebrad said:

as a first off, i'm not a racist, but I don't agree with censoring history, most of Britains ports Liverpool, Bristol, Glasgow,London, had  part in slavery, wrongly it was  a industry as was any of the industrial revolution, with such things as child labour, but it was a norm for those times. We can't judge people from those times by todays standards, we've learned our mistakes from history. so why are we still paying for them, is this still pc gone mad?

   The statue of Colston  yesterday ok he made money from slaves but he passed some on to schools and hospitals in Bristol, as did the trade in Liverpool, where the citys prosperity came from the reinvestment of the proceeds, google it theres connections all over Liverpool, stone carvings of slave ships on the port of Liverpool building, Penny lane's name is from James Penny a slave trader, so do we sanitise all connections? should we burn the book  Uncle Toms cabin? we all know where that leads?, ban "Showboat" that shows slaves,

  Lastly I've been watching the protests from all over the world and no doubt , George Flynn was murdered by the police, and  in the states the Afro-americans escpecially are subjected to very heavy handed treatment, from a militarised police who seem uncontrollable, but after 3 memorials and all the other hype, when will he be canonised?

No one is calling anyone a racist. This is the second post that has opened with 'I'm not a racist'.

I'm sorry mate, you can't just say "yes ok he made money from slaves" like it was a minor transgression. Let the lad off, we all make mistakes sort of excuse, that.

How is it censoring history? Are you not allowed to talk about the slave holder? Is someone preventing its discussion? A statue is designed to commemorate, celebrate, or remember someone or something. I really don't think you need a statue of a slave trader in order to 'remember' history - just teach it in schools, in cold, hard, unflinching fashion. If it was a statue of slaves, designed to remember all of those who had died or been tortured as part of the process that brought Britain wealth, and negatively named the slaveholders involved, that would be fine; a big statue, coo look at this legend statue, is not needed.

You seem to be clocking that a good proportion of British wealth was made off the back of the abduction, torture, murder, and sale of human beings. Every port was involved. Lots of cities prosperity comes from the reinvestment of slave proceedings. This is a blight on British history, an appalling fact that you seem to recognise but not think morally wrong. We certainly shouldn't have statues of its architects.

We are a wealthy country partly as a result of our role in the slave trade; it is wrong of us to erect statues of slave holders. 

 

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1 hour ago, Davebrad said:

as a first off, i'm not a racist, but I don't agree with censoring history, most of Britains ports Liverpool, Bristol, Glasgow,London, had  part in slavery, wrongly it was  a industry as was any of the industrial revolution, with such things as child labour, but it was a norm for those times. We can't judge people from those times by todays standards, we've learned our mistakes from history. so why are we still paying for them, is this still pc gone mad?

   The statue of Colston  yesterday ok he made money from slaves but he passed some on to schools and hospitals in Bristol, as did the trade in Liverpool, where the citys prosperity came from the reinvestment of the proceeds, google it theres connections all over Liverpool, stone carvings of slave ships on the port of Liverpool building, Penny lane's name is from James Penny a slave trader, so do we sanitise all connections? should we burn the book  Uncle Toms cabin? we all know where that leads?, ban "Showboat" that shows slaves,

  Lastly I've been watching the protests from all over the world and no doubt , George Flynn was murdered by the police, and  in the states the Afro-americans escpecially are subjected to very heavy handed treatment, from a militarised police who seem uncontrollable, but after 3 memorials and all the other hype, when will he be canonised?

"im not a racist but"..... 🤔

 

Saying it's ok that he was a slave trader because he did good with the money made is like saying it's good that someone who is a drug dealer donated some of their drug money to charity. 

 

Who is George Flynn by the way?

 

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8 hours ago, darren1810 said:

Yes I have spoken with someone from a BAME background. A friend of mine who is of Asian parentage 

He is Asian. A lot of this is to do with the systemic racism towards black people specifically.

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3 hours ago, Joe B said:

Will also make a controversial comment; I have no issue with the dumping into the docks of a statue venerating a slave owner, who was complicit in the deaths of thousands of slaves in transit, and thousands more once they'd been sold in the United States.

People have been trying to democratically and legally remove/alter the monument for years, to no avail. 

And to those who argue 'he invested in schools and societal good', he did, using money created through the abduction, transit, and sale of human beings. So whilst the end product may have been good for a few people in Bristol, are those ends really justifiable if thousands of people were drowned in the Atlantic/sold like cattle at market into a torturous existence? In my view, no. 

Completely agree. I really like the fact that the statue was felled by people of the race that he enslaved. Did you see the footage of the black kids kneeling on the statue's neck? Thought that was quite powerful. I also like the thought of the authorities dragging the statue from the river and it being displayed in it's battered defaced state in some museum. A fitting epitaph.

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1 hour ago, Nofinikea said:

Absolutely.  Anybody championing that those responsible should be prosecuted are completely missing the point...

Our history with slavery belongs in a museum where it can be properly depicted as it was.  It does not belong on a plinth as some sort of celebration.

The good thing is more people will now know who Colson is and what he did which in turn will educate more as to why it's such an issue for black people.

Get in the sea! 

In a democracy there are ways of doing things, being able to protest about the treatment to George Floyd correct. Unfortunately the pulling down of the statue, and the defacing of Churchills statue was vandalism. It is the start of a very slippery slope if protesters can break the law and do what they want, where does it stop. It is ok for the Mayor of Bristol to argue that it was the correct thing to do, no, the correct thing was for Bristol council to have removed it years ago. Just to emphasise I find the Slave trade completely abhorrent. 

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5 hours ago, Andyregs said:

I’d say there is a difference between a street name and a statue. Literally putting the man on a pedestal as virtuous. It sends a message. And I don’t agree with us benefiting from the slave trade is a reasonable justification. If the statue was in a museum, then that would be history. Lots of countries have awful histories, look at Germany. I don’t see any nazi statues standing though. Some things don’t deserve commemorating. 

he wasn't put on a pedestal cause he was a slave trader, it was because he was born in Bristol and people at that time wanted to remember him, in no due part for the money he gave the city...

   Germany don't have Nazi statues because the people at that time didn't want to remember that era, Japan doesn't have statues of the ww2 era again because they are ashamed of it, but both nations decided at the end of ww2 not to erect statues, Colstons was put up in 1895...

   so following the logic of pulling down statues of people who certain people/groups now find objectionable, how about old Queen Vic in her gardens in castle she was head of the British empire in its hay day over looking millions of slaves... 

   its our history, people at the time of slavery did not object(or not a lot), people in 1920 did not object, 1940, they did not, but peoples thinking and ideas are/have changed and what was normal or common then, is not now because our ideas now have changed, we've learned from our history which is how we have evolved, if you sensor history future generations will not learn of it, and be aware of if it happens again. This is why the Jews remember the holocaust...

 

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4 minutes ago, Davebrad said:

he wasn't put on a pedestal cause he was a slave trader, it was because he was born in Bristol and people at that time wanted to remember him, in no due part for the money he gave the city...

   Germany don't have Nazi statues because the people at that time didn't want to remember that era, Japan doesn't have statues of the ww2 era again because they are ashamed of it, but both nations decided at the end of ww2 not to erect statues, Colstons was put up in 1895...

   so following the logic of pulling down statues of people who certain people/groups now find objectionable, how about old Queen Vic in her gardens in castle she was head of the British empire in its hay day over looking millions of slaves... 

   its our history, people at the time of slavery did not object(or not a lot), people in 1920 did not object, 1940, they did not, but peoples thinking and ideas are/have changed and what was normal or common then, is not now because our ideas now have changed, we've learned from our history which is how we have evolved, if you sensor history future generations will not learn of it, and be aware of if it happens again. This is why the Jews remember the holocaust...

 

But he was a slaver who was put on a pedestal. He had a statue proclaiming him virtuous because he gave money to the city from slavery. Does charity absolve someone’s actions? Would you be happy for a Jimmy saville statue because of his charity work? 

Should the Russians have left the Stalin statue up? Should the Iraqis have left saddams statue up? 

Jews do remember the holocaust, and rightfully so, but they don’t do it with a statue of hitler. 
 

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