Jump to content

  • OVF player sponsorship 2022

    £10 to enter. More details and a link to donate can be found here

Coronavirus


robf

Recommended Posts

13 hours ago, leedsvaliant said:

No, no, no! We can't keep doing this or else it would go on forever! How many of that 24% were actually going in because of Covid? Once again, hysterical and lost perspective. Did we test everyone going into hospital in 2018 for flu? No we didn't! If we had, no doubt lots of people would have had the flu virus. This precautionary principle stuff has to stop for people like you who have zero understanding of the consequences of social distancing and masks on people and businesses. Humans are social creatures and we have to accept that we are all at tiny risk of contracting a virus that might kill us, as we have always done. The human race has survived this long. Just stop!

Sent from my SM-A920F using onevalefan mobile app


 

I'm not doing anything other than stating the facts. As you say, we are all individuals and can make our own judgements and action plans.  And, as you also quite rightly state; "the human race has survived this long."  We all have our own take on the situation, however, sometimes it's good to have some good, objective facts to help in that assessment, so here goes:

Data published on Monday by NHS England shows that there were 5,726 coronavirus patients on Monday 20th June compared with 4,602 on Monday 13th June--a 24% increase. Now whether these are "with" Covid rather than "because" of Covid is, as you indicate, a bit of a moot point.  However, what the figures do undoubtedly do, is mirror the rise in infection from the 1 in 70 people recorded the previous week, to 1 in 50 at the end of last week.

The report also commented on the rise by suggesting that increased people-mingling over half-term and the Jubilee celebrations were part of the reason for these increases. Add to this, the identification of new Omicron variants BA.4 & BA.5 which the report said were driving the rise and we have the reasons for this current rising wave.

On the plus side and as a further testimony to the efficacy of vaccinations, the number of patients in mechanically ventillated beds had increased by a smaller degree from 128 to 150 albeit, this is stil a 17.2% increase.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Advert:


If the facts supported your argument Bill then there'd be no problem in you giving us the context we want (I know you can't as the Government doesn't publish it or at least buries it)

 

We know now that our Government and many Governments around the world played fast and loose with definitions during covid. Some examples:

Hospitalisations : Is this with covid or because of covid. If it's simply 'with' covid then did they have covid when they went into hospital or did they catch it there? Ive seen some analysis that estimates a third of all covid cases were from Hospitals (this was during the height of it)

Covid deaths - any death within 28 days of a positive test? Is it died with covid or because of covid and what co-morbidities were listed as contributing to the death. We know that people who died in car crashes and other accidents have been listed as covid deaths. In NZ I remember there was a case of a man who was shot to death being listed as a covid death.

Unvaccinated not so much a UK one but the point still stands. On a scale of people starting from those who have had the most doses of covid vaccine going to those who have had none, at what point do people get classed as unvaccinated? 

 

Why would we need to abuse the definitions of words in order to justify covid policies if the facts simply supported those policies anyway? 

 

It's so wild that people can cite policies which we know have failed to live up to expectations as a way to avoid the very things that they didn't stop the first 1, 2, 3 times we implemented them?

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites



I'm not doing anything other than stating the facts. As you say, we are all individuals and can make our own judgements and action plans.  And, as you also quite rightly state; "the human race has survived this long."  We all have our own take on the situation, however, sometimes it's good to have some good, objective facts to help in that assessment, so here goes:
Data published on Monday by NHS England shows that there were 5,726 coronavirus patients on Monday 20th June compared with 4,602 on Monday 13th June--a 24% increase. Now whether these are "with" Covid rather than "because" of Covid is, as you indicate, a bit of a moot point.  However, what the figures do undoubtedly do, is mirror the rise in infection from the 1 in 70 people recorded the previous week, to 1 in 50 at the end of last week.
The report also commented on the rise by suggesting that increased people-mingling over half-term and the Jubilee celebrations were part of the reason for these increases. Add to this, the identification of new Omicron variants BA.4 & BA.5 which the report said were driving the rise and we have the reasons for this current rising wave.
On the plus side and as a further testimony to the efficacy of vaccinations, the number of patients in mechanically ventillated beds had increased by a smaller degree from 128 to 150 albeit, this is stil a 17.2% increase.
 


I appreciate you trying to give context, but the facts are useless. Who is actually ill because of Covid? Not incidentally having Covid but because of Covid infection? Who is on a ventilator because of Covid? It's not a moot point, it's actually the vital point. It's like saying that hay fever is rising and 150 people are on ventilators with hay fever. They're not on the ventilators because of hayfever, but let's kill all the plants just to make sure.

Coincidental infection will always be an issue, but we can't go back to non pharmaceutical interventions that don't work because of it. We just have to accept that catching viruses is a part of life and something which we have always accepted before.

Also, you mention the effect of vaccines. If the vaccines work as well as we were sold then an increase in infections is of zero consequence isn't it? Particularly with a far less dangerous strain. Were you ever concerned before with flu epidemics that killed far more people than this current 'wave'? They barely got a footnote in the media. We accepted that unfortunately some elderly or very sick people catch it and die. That's life unfortunately! We all have to die of something.

Again, I like that you are trying to cover your side of the argument and at least debate but the figures you produce are meaningless. You're not alone...most people have taken the figures at face value all along. They were deliberately presented in a way to cause maximum fear without any context . Really, they ought to completely stop any reporting of figures at this point.

Sent from my SM-A920F using onevalefan mobile app

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I can't disagree with a lot of your points, except you cannot just dismiss the figures.  "I" haven't produced these, the ones I quoted are official NHS statistics--dismiss my comments by all means--that's your right, but don't gloss over real and accurate figures by making out that they are "meaningless."  Why should the NHS (or any other official statistics) be "deliberately presented in a way to cause maximum fear without any context?" Put any spin on the stats that you wish to that's your entitlement, but please don't suggest that they have no "context"--you are putting your own context on these and you may well be right or, totally off the mark, but if you're so convinced these particular set of figures are incorrect, then by all means present us with some concrete evidence to back up your argument--don't just dismiss the ones that don't suit your point of view.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Advert:




I can't disagree with a lot of your points, except you cannot just dismiss the figures.  "I" haven't produced these, the ones I quoted are official NHS statistics--dismiss my comments by all means--that's your right, but don't gloss over real and accurate figures by making out that they are "meaningless."  Why should the NHS (or any other official statistics) be "deliberately presented in a way to cause maximum fear without any context?" Put any spin on the stats that you wish to that's your entitlement, but please don't suggest that they have no "context"--you are putting your own context on these and you may well be right or, totally off the mark, but if you're so convinced these particular set of figures are incorrect, then by all means present us with some concrete evidence to back up your argument--don't just dismiss the ones that don't suit your point of view.


Of course, you're correct, they 'may' indicate something...but experience has taught us that they usually don't. Last Christmas should tell us that numbers of infections are absolutely meaningless, yet still clever professionals demanded we locked down again. NHS figures are pretty meaningless I'm afraid, because they never contextualise the figures. It's all very black and white...you either test positive or you don't...and if you do test positive then you go into the figures, irrelevant of what is actually wrong with you.

I don't believe that the figures are actually purposefully malicious in themselves, but the way they have been presented all along gives the suggestion that something is happening when it's not. I have no doubt that the government has purposefully never contextualised figures. They never, for instance, published the numbers of people who solely died of Covid because it was so low. They never showed that the years from early 2000 to until about 2008 had more deaths per 100,000 than 2020 and 2021. It was not an unusual couple of years for deaths. But of course that doesn't fit the narrative does it? They dug themselves a hole so big that it's better to maintain the lie than admit they were wrong.

Sent from my SM-A920F using onevalefan mobile app

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

37 minutes ago, leedsvaliant said:


 

 


Of course, you're correct, they 'may' indicate something...but experience has taught us that they usually don't. Last Christmas should tell us that numbers of infections are absolutely meaningless, yet still clever professionals demanded we locked down again. NHS figures are pretty meaningless I'm afraid, because they never contextualise the figures. It's all very black and white...you either test positive or you don't...and if you do test positive then you go into the figures, irrelevant of what is actually wrong with you.

I don't believe that the figures are actually purposefully malicious in themselves, but the way they have been presented all along gives the suggestion that something is happening when it's not. I have no doubt that the government has purposefully never contextualised figures. They never, for instance, published the numbers of people who solely died of Covid because it was so low. They never showed that the years from early 2000 to until about 2008 had more deaths per 100,000 than 2020 and 2021. It was not an unusual couple of years for deaths. But of course that doesn't fit the narrative does it? They dug themselves a hole so big that it's better to maintain the lie than admit they were wrong.

Sent from my SM-A920F using onevalefan mobile app
 

 

That's some conspiracy theory! We have, of course, got to learn how to live with Covid just as we have to live with influenza and other recurring viruses. However, many people, particularly those with vulnerabilities have been and will continue to be affected disproportionately and statistics are important for future planning and health action plans.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites



That's some conspiracy theory! We have, of course, got to learn how to live with Covid just as we have to live with influenza and other recurring viruses. However, many people, particularly those with vulnerabilities have been and will continue to be affected disproportionately and statistics are important for future planning and health action plans.


Absolutely but hasn't that always been the case? We didn't stop the world and wear masks before though did we? We accepted that some people are more vulnerable to illness than others and that's just the nature of life. Old people die of something.

Sent from my SM-A920F using onevalefan mobile app

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

14 hours ago, leedsvaliant said:


 

 


Absolutely but hasn't that always been the case? We didn't stop the world and wear masks before though did we? We accepted that some people are more vulnerable to illness than others and that's just the nature of life. Old people die of something.

Sent from my SM-A920F using onevalefan mobile app
 

 

Perhaps our views diverge somewhat because I am one of those "Old people" you mention!

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Advert:


Perhaps our views diverge somewhat because I am one of those "Old people" you mention!
I don't know how old you are, but irrelevant of age, the chances of you or anyone you know dying or being seriously ill from Covid are very, very small and they reduce to virtually nothing as you get younger. If you're pretty healthy, you've got virtually no chance. I have elderly parents, but I have not once worried about 'might happens'. They could just as easily catch a myriad of viruses that could kill them, but I've never been concerned. I just want them to live their life freely for whatever time they have left. Fortunately they have never been taken in by the propoganda. With the greatest of respect to you, you have clearly been frightened by the out of context figures.

Sent from my SM-A920F using onevalefan mobile app

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, leedsvaliant said:

I don't know how old you are, but irrelevant of age, the chances of you or anyone you know dying or being seriously ill from Covid are very, very small and they reduce to virtually nothing as you get younger. If you're pretty healthy, you've got virtually no chance. I have elderly parents, but I have not once worried about 'might happens'. They could just as easily catch a myriad of viruses that could kill them, but I've never been concerned. I just want them to live their life freely for whatever time they have left. Fortunately they have never been taken in by the propoganda. With the greatest of respect to you, you have clearly been frightened by the out of context figures.

Sent from my SM-A920F using onevalefan mobile app
 

Shall we say that I'm 'getting on' enough to have been around when the new Vale Park opened!  Yes, statistically chances of dying from Covid are small and no, you're completely wrong in asserting that I "have been frightened" that is not the case, despite the sad fact that we have, unfortunately, had experience of friends being taken by this virus and the heartache and sadness this has caused, my wife and I have not cowered away and have tried to live life as normally as possible.

I am in no way attempting to over-emphasise the threat from Covid-19, but equally, nor should you decry perfectly sourced scientific statistics.  It has never been to do with the pure numbers of deaths, but what, I am certain, will be shown over time (and this can only be authenticated after say two to three more years of figures) is that Covid will have caused a spike in the average numbers of annual deaths against the pre-pandemic figures, so please do not make too light of what has been an unwanted and pretty pernicious viral pandemic.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites



Shall we say that I'm 'getting on' enough to have been around when the new Vale Park opened!  Yes, statistically chances of dying from Covid are small and no, you're completely wrong in asserting that I "have been frightened" that is not the case, despite the sad fact that we have, unfortunately, had experience of friends being taken by this virus and the heartache and sadness this has caused, my wife and I have not cowered away and have tried to live life as normally as possible.
I am in no way attempting to over-emphasise the threat from Covid-19, but equally, nor should you decry perfectly sourced scientific statistics.  It has never been to do with the pure numbers of deaths, but what, I am certain, will be shown over time (and this can only be authenticated after say two to three more years of figures) is that Covid will have caused a spike in the average numbers of annual deaths against the pre-pandemic figures, so please do not make too light of what has been an unwanted and pretty pernicious viral pandemic.


Don't get me wrong, any death is sad for the people nearest to us, but we all die, and the older you get, the more chance you have of succumbing to numerous ailments. That's the way it is. Some people seem to think that we can live forever.

I'm glad to hear that you have not lived in fear, but many elderly people have...to the point where they haven't gone to hospital for other things, or been involved with their grandchildren, or done the pastimes they enjoy with the relatively short amount of time they have left. That's the real tragedy for me. Some have died and in their last couple of years on this earth, they have been confined to their homes due to a massive overreaction based on dodgy modelling, an unreliable test and a compliant media. And some younger people have had their futures ruined when it really wasn't necessary. None of it was necessary. I'm sure you remember the HK flu, where nobody changed their routine but up to 80,000 people died...possibly more as statistics weren't as accurate then. The difference? Social media and 24hr news...it's that simple.

Your original argument was that social distancing and masks should be reintroduced but the harms of just those actions far outweigh any impact of Covid. I'm firmly in the camp that we cannot keep going back to these measures or they will become permanent.



Sent from my SM-A920F using onevalefan mobile app

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, leedsvaliant said:


 

 


Don't get me wrong, any death is sad for the people nearest to us, but we all die, and the older you get, the more chance you have of succumbing to numerous ailments. That's the way it is. Some people seem to think that we can live forever.

I'm glad to hear that you have not lived in fear, but many elderly people have...to the point where they haven't gone to hospital for other things, or been involved with their grandchildren, or done the pastimes they enjoy with the relatively short amount of time they have left. That's the real tragedy for me. Some have died and in their last couple of years on this earth, they have been confined to their homes due to a massive overreaction based on dodgy modelling, an unreliable test and a compliant media. And some younger people have had their futures ruined when it really wasn't necessary. None of it was necessary. I'm sure you remember the HK flu, where nobody changed their routine but up to 80,000 people died...possibly more as statistics weren't as accurate then. The difference? Social media and 24hr news...it's that simple.

Your original argument was that social distancing and masks should be reintroduced but the harms of just those actions far outweigh any impact of Covid. I'm firmly in the camp that we cannot keep going back to these measures or they will become permanent.



Sent from my SM-A920F using onevalefan mobile app
 

 

Unfortunately I find some of these last comments of yours as quite condescending and misunderstanding of some of the facts and arguments I have tried to put forward in an objective way. 

I think we should draw a line under this particular issue and concentrate on the new season coming up in League one and our shared view for success of PV instead of the diverse views we so clearly hold about the pandemic. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Advert:


Unfortunately I find some of these last comments of yours as quite condescending and misunderstanding of some of the facts and arguments I have tried to put forward in an objective way. 
I think we should draw a line under this particular issue and concentrate on the new season coming up in League one and our shared view for success of PV instead of the diverse views we so clearly hold about the pandemic. 
Agreed. Didn't mean to sound condescending, just matter of fact.

Sent from my SM-A920F using onevalefan mobile app

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • 3 weeks later...

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

  • Reporting Posts and Ignoring Users

    • Admin don't read everything. Don't assume we'll spot rule breaking. Please report posts and we'll act ASAP. If you're logged in use the orange report post button. If you're not logged in, please - Contact us here
    • If you can't get on with another user you can "ignore" them. Follow the link, type in their username and save - Click here
    • Check with admin if you wish to sell/auction any items. We're happy to support good causes but check first - Contact us here
  • Friends of OVF




×
×
  • Create New...