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4 minutes ago, leedsvaliant said:


You take your 'road', I'll take mine!

 


Your bit about unmasked people giving them covid is nonsense. Mental gymnastics again. I'm fine with you wearing a mask, if you truly believe they help then knock yourself out. You weren't wearing a mask three years ago though were you in a bad flu season to protect others? If you are not ill you are not spreading virus to anyone.

In terms of your bit about vaccines. I think I already said that those over the age of seventy should probably take it to prevent them being really ill... Even if it's a very small possibility. It's still their choice though. Do we castigate smokers that end up in hospital? Those who eat too much? Drink too much? Did we castigate those who didn't take the flu jab and ended up in hospital? No, we didn't. Do we castigate people who go into hospital because they were driving too fast or choose to participate in dangerous past times? No.

So your theory is that people shouldn't do anything that could make them end up in hospital. How far do you take it? Why aren't you annoyed at all these people who end up in hospital because of their choices? Again, you're trying to justify your virtuous stance and the fact that you have been sold Hook line and sinker on this.

 

 

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Your assertion that your vaccination status has no effect on others sadly, shows up your selfishness.  Everyones' vaccination status potentially can effect others. Don't take my word for it, ask the ICU consultant at the London hospital who was featured in a news feature by Clive Mirey on BBC this week.  He could barely contain his anger as he took Clive around his ward and pointed out that every single bed was occupied by someone who had chosen 'freedom' over vaccinations.  All these people were tying-up the consultant's time, his team and facilities that needn't have been tied-up! 
Your 'freedom' is a potential 'sentence' to others. It's obvious from your responses and rationale that you're not likely to be persuaded from your introspective and selfish approach, so not a lot of point in continuing this dialogue. 
Again I ask you, why aren't you castigating obese people who have chosen to eat too much and end up in hospital? why aren't you castigating smokers who end up in hospital through their own choices? Are they wasting doctors time? Aren't they taking up a bed of someone who genuinely needs it. If you want to enhance your own sense of virtue, why don't you go up to smokers and call them selfish.. see what reactions you get.

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1 minute ago, leedsvaliant said:
38 minutes ago, Bycarsbill said:
Your assertion that your vaccination status has no effect on others sadly, shows up your selfishness.  Everyones' vaccination status potentially can effect others. Don't take my word for it, ask the ICU consultant at the London hospital who was featured in a news feature by Clive Mirey on BBC this week.  He could barely contain his anger as he took Clive around his ward and pointed out that every single bed was occupied by someone who had chosen 'freedom' over vaccinations.  All these people were tying-up the consultant's time, his team and facilities that needn't have been tied-up! 
Your 'freedom' is a potential 'sentence' to others. It's obvious from your responses and rationale that you're not likely to be persuaded from your introspective and selfish approach, so not a lot of point in continuing this dialogue. 

Again I ask you, why aren't you castigating obese people who have chosen to eat too much and end up in hospital? why aren't you castigating smokers who end up in hospital through their own choices? Are they wasting doctors time? Aren't they taking up a bed of someone who genuinely needs it. If you want to enhance your own sense of virtue, why don't you go up to smokers and call them selfish.. see what reactions you get.

Good points, with which I'm in total agreement.  Sadly, smoking & obesity related illnesses are two of the biggest consumers of precious NHS facilities!

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I posted about the South African variant when it first became known but from memory their conclusions were based on a small number of cases so people were right to be cautious.
 
I agree with a lot of that Paul and if you truly believe that masks prevent the spread of the virus in spite of all the real world evidence to the contrary then fine. I am choosing not to because I believe that prolonging this sense of danger lurking at all times is actually more selfish and dangerous.

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Good points, with which I'm in total agreement.  Sadly, smoking & obesity related illnesses are two of the biggest consumers of precious NHS facilities!
Yep and I'm in agreement that people should take responsibility for their own health and look after themselves more. I started running a few years ago after being overweight and I ran the London marathon last year. I decided that I wanted to be healthier for myself and for my family.

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1 hour ago, Bycarsbill said:

Your assertion that your vaccination status has no effect on others sadly, shows up your selfishness.  Everyones' vaccination status potentially can effect others. Don't take my word for it, ask the ICU consultant at the London hospital who was featured in a news feature by Clive Mirey on BBC this week.  He could barely contain his anger as he took Clive around his ward and pointed out that every single bed was occupied by someone who had chosen 'freedom' over vaccinations.  All these people were tying-up the consultant's time, his team and facilities that needn't have been tied-up! 

Your 'freedom' is a potential 'sentence' to others. It's obvious from your responses and rationale that you're not likely to be persuaded from your introspective and selfish approach, so not a lot of point in continuing this dialogue. 

This is unconscionable.

 

You are the one asking people to give up their rights to protect you.

 

I am just saying leave me alone, I am responsible for my own body, not the Government or any other person.

 

The very fact that you have to rely on emotional blackmail shows how weak your argument is.

 

That consultant should not be a health worker if sick people are a waste of his time and he is visibly angry and people who may or may not be exercising their right to free and informed consent before having a medical procedure. 

 

And how about, if we are to keep banging this drum about people having to have injections they don't want to somehow protect other people...then let's be 100% accurate at the very least and call them experimental or trial vaccines eh?

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, leedsvaliant said:

Yep and I'm in agreement that people should take responsibility for their own health and look after themselves more. I started running a few years ago after being overweight and I ran the London marathon last year. I decided that I wanted to be healthier for myself and for my family.

We're definitely on the same page for this.

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55 minutes ago, Regal Beagle said:

This is unconscionable.

 

You are the one asking people to give up their rights to protect you.

 

I am just saying leave me alone, I am responsible for my own body, not the Government or any other person.

 

The very fact that you have to rely on emotional blackmail shows how weak your argument is.

 

That consultant should not be a health worker if sick people are a waste of his time and he is visibly angry and people who may or may not be exercising their right to free and informed consent before having a medical procedure. 

 

And how about, if we are to keep banging this drum about people having to have injections they don't want to somehow protect other people...then let's be 100% accurate at the very least and call them experimental or trial vaccines eh?

 

 

 

 

They're hardly "trial vaccines" when their efficacy has been shown graphically--it's the unvaccinated who are currently seriously ill in hospitals, not the vaccinated--how much proof do you need?  An unvaccinated patient in the ICU bed was on camera very clearly regretting his decision not to have the vaccine--unfortunately his realisation had come a little late in the day!

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14 minutes ago, Bycarsbill said:

They're hardly "trial vaccines" when their efficacy has been shown graphically--it's the unvaccinated who are currently seriously ill in hospitals, not the vaccinated--how much proof do you need?  An unvaccinated patient in the ICU bed was on camera very clearly regretting his decision not to have the vaccine--unfortunately his realisation had come a little late in the day!

Disgusting unbalanced reporting again from the BBC again but that's no surprise.   I appreciate it's a difficult balancing act in terms of the NHS but it's a very small minority of people, but they chose to pick one ward in one hospital.  This certainly isn't the case nationwide.

The fact the vaccine can cause bad side affects means no one should be coerced or forced into taking it and lose access to something as a result.  

I've personally got 2 extended family members(distant cousins) who've been badly affected by the vaccine, 1 to the point where it will affect them for the rest of their lives(massive stroke at the age of 33 and now can't look after their children) and the 2nd is currently fighting for his life in Stoke hospital(41 and has a blood clot and fluid on lungs).  That's not scaremongering or misinformation it's fact, yes they have probably both been seriously unlucky but the same applies to anyone who gets covid when you look at the data. 

Why don't the BBC go around and interview a doctor and shove a mic in the face of these people as there are plenty of them believe me!?

When I see people post you'd feel differently if a family member had suffered or died from covid I could just as easily counter that with people who have family members who've taken the vaccine in good faith and been affected. 

My Dad also has a cousin who passed away within 28 days of having covid and would probably still be here had it not been for it(he picked it up in hospital after going in with a chest infection, he did beat the covid but it left him so weak he died from pneumonia a few weeks later) so I can see both sides of the argument.  However he was also triple jabbed so the vax perhaps doesn't work for everyone.

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10 minutes ago, Shropshire_Valiant said:

Disgusting unbalanced reporting again from the BBC again but that's no surprise.   I appreciate it's a difficult balancing act in terms of the NHS but it's a very small minority of people, but they chose to pick one ward in one hospital.  This certainly isn't the case nationwide.

 

The fact the vaccine can cause bad side affects means no one should be coerced or forced into taking it and lose access to something as a result.  

 

I've personally got 2 extended family members(distant cousins) who've been badly affected by the vaccine, 1 to the point where it will affect them for the rest of their lives(massive stroke at the age of 33 and now can't look after their children) and the 2nd is currently fighting for his life in Stoke hospital(41 and has a blood clot and fluid on lungs).  That's not scaremongering or misinformation it's fact, yes they have probably both been seriously unlucky but the same applies to anyone who gets covid when you look at the data. 

Why don't the BBC go around and interview a doctor and shove a mic in the face of these people as there are plenty of them believe me!?

When I see people post you'd feel differently if a family member had suffered or died from covid I could just as easily counter that with people who have family members who've taken the vaccine in good faith and been affected. 

My Dad also has a cousin who passed away within 28 days of having covid and would probably still be here had it not been for it(he picked it up in hospital after going in with a chest infection, he did beat the covid but it left him so weak he died from pneumonia a few weeks later) so I can see both sides of the argument.  However he was also triple jabbed so the vax perhaps doesn't work for everyone.

Nationwide, in hospitals, more than 70% of cases are unvaccinated and 90%plus in ICU--that's NHS figures not the BBC--how much proof do you require?  Come on get real. I'll support anyone's right to 'freedom' when it doesn't impinge on other people because those who decline vaccines are taking up a disproportionate amount of NHS resources that could be used to help reduce the long waiting lists for routine operations that have had to be postponed because of Covid patients.  I have a friend whose operation for a replacement hip has now been postponed twice because the hospital concerned has had to make room and facilities available to treat Covid patients, the vast majority of whom are unvaccinated--that's positive proof that some people's 'freedom' (or selfishness) impacts on others!

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Imo, it's a sad fact, backed by the discussions on this forum,  that there has been no balance from any sides wether it be the Government,  MSM et Al

It appears opposition to the narrative is closed down by belittling and derising the opposite point of view 

Why not question everything 

There are certain people on here imo, who would willing set up camps for the unvaccinated and force them to into an invasion of there will, how far away are they from some people 70 or 80 years ago ?

 

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11 minutes ago, Bycarsbill said:

Nationwide, in hospitals, more than 70% of cases are unvaccinated and 90%plus in ICU--that's NHS figures not the BBC--how much proof do you require?  Come on get real. I'll support anyone's right to 'freedom' when it doesn't impinge on other people because those who decline vaccines are taking up a disproportionate amount of NHS resources that could be used to help reduce the long waiting lists for routine operations that have had to be postponed because of Covid patients.  I have a friend whose operation for a replacement hip has now been postponed twice because the hospital concerned has had to make room and facilities available to treat Covid patients, the vast majority of whom are unvaccinated--that's positive proof that some people's 'freedom' (or selfishness) impacts on others!

The 70% figure has been called out as rubbish by various sources since that fool Dr Hillary came out with it on Good Morning Britain.  As the below show it varies from hospital to hospital.

"A separate report published by the UKHSA showed that, although unvaccinated individuals made up only a small proportion of the overall population, they accounted for 27% of those with a confirmed case of omicron admitted to hospital in England and for 39% in London."

 

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2 minutes ago, Shropshire_Valiant said:

The 70% figure has been called out as rubbish by various sources since that fool Dr Hillary came out with it on Good Morning Britain.  As the below show it varies from hospital to hospital.

"A separate report published by the UKHSA showed that, although unvaccinated individuals made up only a small proportion of the overall population, they accounted for 27% of those with a confirmed case of omicron admitted to hospital in England and for 39% in London."

 

I think you're quoting the percentages of the total number of people in hospital--whereas I was quoting the percentages relating to those who have been admitted with Covid.

Whatever the actual percentages are, you're not seriously denying that those (whatever number) of unvaccinated people are tying-up valuable NHS resources are you?

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1 minute ago, Bycarsbill said:

I think you're quoting the percentages of the total number of people in hospital--whereas I was quoting the percentages relating to those who have been admitted with Covid.

Whatever the actual percentages are, you're not seriously denying that those (whatever number) of unvaccinated people are tying-up valuable NHS resources are you?

Not denying it, it will certainly be the case with some, however your making the assumption all these people wouldn't have gone in hospital had they taken the vaccine(you don't know that for certain). Like I said my Dad's cousin caught covid and was triple vaccinated and required hospital treatment still(a man in his early 70s).  In his case I honestly believe it wouldn't have mattered whether he'd had the vaccines or not(he ultimately still died not from covid but it certainly didn't help his cause).

Like leedsvaliant I'd pretty much advise anyone over 60 or 70 to get vaccinated but again it's personal choice.  Some NHS resource is also being taken up by vaccinated people because of reactions to the vaccine, but that's never mentioned.  Are they also tying-up valuable resource as a result of their decisions?

The backlog of operations is also down to the historical damage lockdowns did not just unvaccinated people.

I just don't think the figures are as cut and dried as you're making out(the BMJ article alludes to that at the bottom, difficult to piece together).  Plus it's very easy to make statistics/figures suite an agenda(we've all done it), I'm a civil servant and see the govt do it regularly believe me. 

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So allocate NHS resources based on status?

Even if those people have paid into the system all their lives? 

So where would that end ? Smoking,  drinking,  eating red meat, etc

The clue is in the name National Health Service!!!!!

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1 hour ago, Shropshire_Valiant said:

Not denying it, it will certainly be the case with some, however your making the assumption all these people wouldn't have gone in hospital had they taken the vaccine(you don't know that for certain). Like I said my Dad's cousin caught covid and was triple vaccinated and required hospital treatment still(a man in his early 70s).  In his case I honestly believe it wouldn't have mattered whether he'd had the vaccines or not(he ultimately still died not from covid but it certainly didn't help his cause).

Like leedsvaliant I'd pretty much advise anyone over 60 or 70 to get vaccinated but again it's personal choice.  Some NHS resource is also being taken up by vaccinated people because of reactions to the vaccine, but that's never mentioned.  Are they also tying-up valuable resource as a result of their decisions?

The backlog of operations is also down to the historical damage lockdowns did not just unvaccinated people.

I just don't think the figures are as cut and dried as you're making out(the BMJ article alludes to that at the bottom, difficult to piece together).  Plus it's very easy to make statistics/figures suite an agenda(we've all done it), I'm a civil servant and see the govt do it regularly believe me. 

I'm sorry to read about your dad's cousin and perhaps to put some further perspective on this subject, I am coming up to 74yrs of age, so my outlook is probably a lot more conservative (with a small c) than some younger folk. 

I am personally pleased to have received 3 doses of vaccine, and even more pleased that my younger brothers, my offspring and my elder grandchildren have all had their full doses too. Thankfully, although virtually all of us has had at least one experience of Covid, the infection has been relatively mild and we are all back to full health and so far, fingers crossed, haven't had any experience of the long-Covid that has affected many people.  For all these reasons, it has definitely worked for us and I am more than happy to give my full backing to the vaccination programme!

On a more basic level, having also got the proof of vaccination, we, unlike some who are not vaccinated will be able to travel abroad should we wish to during this coming year.  As reported today, (page 18 of The Times) many European countries are strenghtening their entry requirements and will not permit unvaccinated travellers to enter their country as Mr. Djokovic found to his cost in Australia. 'Freedom' to choose to be unvaccinated, may have consequences in terms of reduced freedom to travel!

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Rumour has it that next year you have to identify your religion before you travel. This can be done through documentation (papers) or for quicker transit by an emblem worn on the front of clothing...... crucifix, star of David etc etc. Plans to identify IQ of travellers by numerical display have been postponed along with STD contamination at any time, family  insanity/depression/mental illness, and abortion choices.

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On 29/01/2022 at 14:14, Bycarsbill said:

I'm sorry to read about your dad's cousin and perhaps to put some further perspective on this subject, I am coming up to 74yrs of age, so my outlook is probably a lot more conservative (with a small c) than some younger folk. 

I am personally pleased to have received 3 doses of vaccine, and even more pleased that my younger brothers, my offspring and my elder grandchildren have all had their full doses too. Thankfully, although virtually all of us has had at least one experience of Covid, the infection has been relatively mild and we are all back to full health and so far, fingers crossed, haven't had any experience of the long-Covid that has affected many people.  For all these reasons, it has definitely worked for us and I am more than happy to give my full backing to the vaccination programme!

On a more basic level, having also got the proof of vaccination, we, unlike some who are not vaccinated will be able to travel abroad should we wish to during this coming year.  As reported today, (page 18 of The Times) many European countries are strenghtening their entry requirements and will not permit unvaccinated travellers to enter their country as Mr. Djokovic found to his cost in Australia. 'Freedom' to choose to be unvaccinated, may have consequences in terms of reduced freedom to travel!

The long covid thing is another overblown and overhyped condition. I suspect a lot of it is in the head but obviously you can't prove this and you can't hurt people's 'feelings' by suggesting as such. Just like any virus, some people do suffer long lasting effects but I doubt it is the problem that it is made out to be. A study done a few months ago suggested that less than 2% of people had any symptoms after 12 weeks. Whilst I think you were right to take the vaccine, you have no evidence to suggest that your offspring or elder grandchildren were assisted by the vaccine - in the greatest likelihood they would have suffered mild symptoms with or without the vaccine.

The countries strengthening their entry requirements is pure coercion, straight out of the dictators textbook. As has been stated many times, the vaccine does not prevent transmission or prevent you getting the virus, so what exactly is the advantage of having a vaccine over an unvaccinated person and how does this help the country in question? Much of the data points to the fact that you are more likely to catch covid as a vaccinated person, as proven by the significant increase in cases recently in highly vaccinated countries. When does this requirement stop and how many vaccine boosters does one need to be fully vaccinated?

 

 

 

 

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