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8 hours ago, leedsvaliant said:

Frustrating maybe but in a free society, you can't force people to undertake a medical intervention.

I believe the vaccines to be safe but I also understand the genuine concerns people have over long term safety and also the many thousands of yellow card reported adverse effects.

I can also understand those under the age of 50 where taking a vaccine has a negligible positive effect and where potential side effects have a similar statistical probability to being seriously ill with Covid.

If a few unvaccinated people end up in hospital then they ultimately live, and die, by that decision and no amount of calling them an idiot or selfish is going to change things.

First of all LV I did not call anyone an idiot or selfish in my reply to you so please take that back..

Yes in a free society a person cannot be forced to under take a medical intervention but people can and should be educated with the facts and should understand that it is in their best interests to have the vaccine and in the best interests of their families, fellow citizens and the people who they would expect and depend on for treatment if they got sick.

The view of the CDC/FDA after nearly 500 million people in the United States have received COVID-19 vaccines under the most intense safety monitoring program in U.S. history is that the vaccines are safe and effective. The benefits of COVID-19 vaccination outweigh the known and potential risks.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/safety/adverse-events.html

There should be no rational or genuine concern about the long term safety with the Covid vaccines as when new vaccines are released the unknown side effects show up in the first two months after vaccination. This history goes back to the 1960's with the Polio vaccine although public health officials continue to monitor the vaccines.

 

https://www.muhealth.org/our-stories/how-do-we-know-covid-19-vaccine-wont-have-long-term-side-effects

The Guardian and other articles suggest it isn't a "Few unvaccinated people that end up in hospital" but a significant number of unvaxxed patients that require significant resources to be treated, a situation easily avoidable with the jab.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/dec/22/help-us-to-help-you-doctors-in-england-make-pleas-to-unvaccinated

 

 

 

 

 

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First of all LV I did not call anyone an idiot or selfish in my reply to you so please take that back..
Yes in a free society a person cannot be forced to under take a medical intervention but people can and should be educated with the facts and should understand that it is in their best interests to have the vaccine and in the best interests of their families, fellow citizens and the people who they would expect and depend on for treatment if they got sick.
The view of the CDC/FDA after nearly 500 million people in the United States have received COVID-19 vaccines under the most intense safety monitoring program in U.S. history is that the vaccines are safe and effective. The benefits of COVID-19 vaccination outweigh the known and potential risks.
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/safety/adverse-events.html
There should be no rational or genuine concern about the long term safety with the Covid vaccines as when new vaccines are released the unknown side effects show up in the first two months after vaccination. This history goes back to the 1960's with the Polio vaccine although public health officials continue to monitor the vaccines.
 
https://www.muhealth.org/our-stories/how-do-we-know-covid-19-vaccine-wont-have-long-term-side-effects
The Guardian and other articles suggest it isn't a "Few unvaccinated people that end up in hospital" but a significant number of unvaxxed patients that require significant resources to be treated, a situation easily avoidable with the jab.
 
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/dec/22/help-us-to-help-you-doctors-in-england-make-pleas-to-unvaccinated
 
 
 
 
 
I wasn't saying that you had called these people idiots but people like Tony Blair did.

I agree with a lot of your analysis but clearly the explanation behind vaccines has not been well communicated to a certain demographic of people. They're so desperate to push it everywhere that it's bound to raise some questions.

Unfortunately this is what comes with dodgy data, testing and modelling from the start. Once people have worked out that they're being done up like a kipper it's very difficult to regain their trust on anything.

Perhaps if they had made clear from the start the risks of dying of Covid and the comparitive risks of having/not having the vaccine for different age groups and also being very transparent about potential side effects then people could make their own judgement.

As I said, whether you agree with people not wanting the vaccine or not, I think it's unfair to label them as selfish (again I'm not saying that's what you say). There are a number of reasons why people might not trust vaccines, perhaps their family have been adversely affected, perhaps they are pregnant and have fears on the effect on their unborn child, perhaps they just don't agree with chemically enhanced immunity rather than natural? It's never black and white just because the data says it's safe, which is why I think it's completely abhorrent when people say these people should not be treated or they should be secluded from society. It has very nasty undertones of the darkest days of recent history and is not a road I feel we should travel down. Their body, their choice.



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So....are these scientists that 2 weeks ago were clamouring for restrictions and saying we were going to face a 'tsunami ' of hospitalisations going to have any comeback?

The boy who cried wolf AGAIN but yet people still fell for it (including people on here and the leader of the opposition).

The modelling has been a disgrace throughout. Nobody believed me, but now once again it's coming home to roost.

I hope SAGE, Whitty and Vallance are never listened to again. They want to stay relevant to try and keep their status. A disgrace.

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This is all getting very confusing.

Apparently the omigod variant isn't the scarey monster they said it was going to be..... but there may still be restrictions after Xmas. 

The booster shots start losing effectiveness after 10 weeks...... does that mean 5 boosters per year? ..........Can they distribute a booster shot in 10 weeks?

10 days quarantine can be 7 days quarantine.... maybe.

Boris says a jab is a great Xmas gift....... I would like to give him a jab..... followed by a right hook and an uppercut. 

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1 minute ago, FriedRice said:

All hail the king of smug

On one hand you have got the head of the UK health service telling me that it is too early to know for sure how this is going to play out and on the other Ive got LeedsValiant telling me it's all going to be ok. How do I know who to believe?

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20 hours ago, leedsvaliant said:

I wasn't saying that you had called these people idiots but people like Tony Blair did.

I agree with a lot of your analysis but clearly the explanation behind vaccines has not been well communicated to a certain demographic of people. They're so desperate to push it everywhere that it's bound to raise some questions.

Unfortunately this is what comes with dodgy data, testing and modelling from the start. Once people have worked out that they're being done up like a kipper it's very difficult to regain their trust on anything.

Perhaps if they had made clear from the start the risks of dying of Covid and the comparitive risks of having/not having the vaccine for different age groups and also being very transparent about potential side effects then people could make their own judgement.

As I said, whether you agree with people not wanting the vaccine or not, I think it's unfair to label them as selfish (again I'm not saying that's what you say). There are a number of reasons why people might not trust vaccines, perhaps their family have been adversely affected, perhaps they are pregnant and have fears on the effect on their unborn child, perhaps they just don't agree with chemically enhanced immunity rather than natural? It's never black and white just because the data says it's safe, which is why I think it's completely abhorrent when people say these people should not be treated or they should be secluded from society. It has very nasty undertones of the darkest days of recent history and is not a road I feel we should travel down. Their body, their choice.

If people are scared because of "Chemically enhanced immunity" then that's funny and sad at the same time as the vaccines are made up of the same/similar chemicals that make up the virus and the virus is made up of the same/similar chemicals that make up the human body, the chemicals are just organized (For want of a better word) differently. Life can be thought of as a series of chemical reactions and interactions!!!

There's risk with everything we do, education is the key.  I just wish people would take note of the key information and not listen to the anti-vaxxers and take note that vaccines have been around for over 60 years and have safely treated many diseases eg Polio, Tetanus, Diphtheria, Measles etc.

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You can be fined if you do not work from home when you could, i.e. if you go to work unnecessarily.

I would happily agree it is bonkers that you can still drive to the pub but it is not quite as simplistic as your first post suggested.

 

5 minutes ago, For Us All said:

Why,is he fining them if they go down the pub as well?

 

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On one hand you have got the head of the UK health service telling me that it is too early to know for sure how this is going to play out and on the other Ive got LeedsValiant telling me it's all going to be ok. How do I know who to believe?
Listen to someone else who hasn't got a vested interest? You keep insinuating that it is me that comes to these conclusions.

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If people are scared because of "Chemically enhanced immunity" then that's funny and sad at the same time as the vaccines are made up of the same/similar chemicals that make up the virus and the virus is made up of the same/similar chemicals that make up the human body, the chemicals are just organized (For want of a better word) differently. Life can be thought of as a series of chemical reactions and interactions!!!
There's risk with everything we do, education is the key.  I just wish people would take note of the key information and not listen to the anti-vaxxers and take note that vaccines have been around for over 60 years and have safely treated many diseases eg Polio, Tetanus, Diphtheria, Measles etc.


I agree, there's a risk with everything we do, hence the insane reaction to Covid baffles me.

I agree that people need to have a better analysis of the pros and cons of vaccines. Actual risk reduction is actually very small but for certain demographics this increases.

I'm not saying it's right that people would rather use their own natural immune system but I can understand their argument.

The difference that you state with those vaccines is that they were developed and tested over many years and used a traditional type of vaccine. Mrna technology in mass vaccination is fairly new and so you can understand people's reticence about trusting it.

The trouble with all this is that people who take the vaccine are seen as good and virtuous and those that don't take it are seen as bad and selfish. What I'm saying is that the reasons are never black and white.

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