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4 minutes ago, philpvfc said:

That’s ICU, not hospital admissions. Not debating the seriousness of that, but it’s not what you said originally. 

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1 minute ago, George said:

That’s ICU, not hospital admissions. Not debating the seriousness of that, but it’s not what you said originally. 

The bottom link says 80% hospital admissions. Yes, this is only one hospital so could be dis proportional. Friends I speak to who work at Stoke hospital say the vast majority in for Covid are unvaccinated and has been the case for quite some time. 

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3 minutes ago, philpvfc said:

The figures on this date show that 53% of patients in hospital with Covid are unvaccinated or had their first jab more than 21 days prior (page 35). 

Page 35 of what? Sorry, I missed that. Just want to make sure I’m up to speed. 

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Sorry….if you go on their source (UKHSA) and scroll down to page 35, it does show the vast majority of young people haven’t been vaccinated and the vast majority of older people have been vaccinated who have been admitted to hospital but if you do the maths for those who’ve not been vaccinated or only had 1 jab over 21 days prior it totals 53% of admissions.

 

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1041593/Vaccine-surveillance-report-week-50.pdf

Edited by philpvfc
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15 hours ago, MBE said:

That’s an untrue statement.

Vaccinated and unvaccinated people ARE spreading the virus.Vaccine reduces your risk of Covid and hospitalisation.

If only unvaccinated people where the issue we wouldn’t be throwing the kitchen sink at the booster program.

But it's the unvaccinated who are populating hospital wards & ITU units!

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The unvaxxed are more likely to get serious disease or die from Covid. It's frustrating for healthcare staff as they say many of these cases are entirely avoidable. 
1800x1200_vaccine.jpg WWW.WEBMD.COM  
Frustrating maybe but in a free society, you can't force people to undertake a medical intervention.

I believe the vaccines to be safe but I also understand the genuine concerns people have over long term safety and also the many thousands of yellow card reported adverse effects.

I can also understand those under the age of 50 where taking a vaccine has a negligible positive effect and where potential side effects have a similar statistical probability to being seriously ill with Covid.

If a few unvaccinated people end up in hospital then they ultimately live, and die, by that decision and no amount of calling them an idiot or selfish is going to change things.

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54 minutes ago, Bycarsbill said:

But it's the unvaccinated who are populating hospital wards & ITU units!

Again untrue.

Hospital wards are populated by both vaccinated and unvaccinated people. The large majority of those in ICU are unvaccinated.

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5 minutes ago, MBE said:

Again untrue.

Hospital wards are populated by both vaccinated and unvaccinated people. The large majority of those in ICU are unvaccinated.

Pedantic or what? You're losing me on this one--just what point are you trying to make?  That people shouldn't be vaccinated? Are you one of the 'conspiracy theorist anti-vaxxer's?

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1 minute ago, Bycarsbill said:

Pedantic or what? You're losing me on this one--just what point are you trying to make?  That people shouldn't be vaccinated? Are you one of the 'conspiracy theorist anti-vaxxer's?

Happy to share I am double vaccinated with a booster and contracted Covid shortly after my 2nd jab, I was consequently hospitalised.

I would say no I’m not a conspiracy theorist or anti vaxxer and think it a personal choice to do so. I get fed up with general statements which are untrue. It’s not helpful. 

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It's not true based on the most recent Gov data:

 

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1041593/Vaccine-surveillance-report-week-50.pdf

 

I've done the sums very quickly, double vaxxed account for around 51% of hospital admissions. Unvaccinated accounts for around 42%.

 

That's the cold hard fact without context however which doesn't account for risk factors or behaviours or population sizes

 

For example, in the youngest age group - it's the overwhelming majority of admissions who are unvaccinated - 568 compared to just 9 vaccinated. But this is for under 18s, the least vaccinated age group by far. So you would expect that if the population of unvaccinated is higher, that more hospitalisations will come from that, as a raw number.

 

 

The government data even comes with its own disclaimers:

1 In the context of very high vaccine coverage in the population, even with a highly effective vaccine, it is expected that a large proportion of cases, hospitalisations and deaths would occur in vaccinated individuals, simply because a larger proportion of the population are vaccinated than unvaccinated and no vaccine is 100% effective. This is especially true because vaccination has been prioritised in individuals who are more susceptible or more at risk of severe disease. Individuals in risk groups may also be more at risk of hospitalisation or death due to non-COVID-19 causes, and thus may be hospitalised or die with COVID-19 rather than because of COVID-19

 

In conclusion:

 

True - Unvaccinated people are disproportionately more likely to be hospitalised

False - The majority of hospitalisations are unvaccinated

 

based on the latest Government data which is for week 50 2021 i think it said.

Edited by Regal Beagle
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I wanted to separate my opinion from the factual stuff above.

 

The accurate argument would be that unvaccinated people are not mitigating their risk and so are disproportionately taking up hospital beds. 

The arguments against that would be...we don't know why they're admitted, the classic WITH or OF debate. It also doesn't account for behaviours - for example, is it more likely that kids and younger adults live more riskier lifestyles when it comes to potentially contracting covid? If you haven't been vaccinated at this point because of a personal choice then are you more or less likely to be following other good practices/guidence? Are teachers really able to police a class of 20-30 kids to the point that they're "covid safe"?

Are elderly people more likely to choose to live in a way which mitigates their risk - avoiding busy indoor places for example?

 

All factors which influence these stats.

 

My own political philosophy is that the state has absolutely no right to tell me how to live my life and that would include medical interventions especially. I would consider it far more selfish to expect others to get vaccinated to protect you, than someone choosing not to be vaccinated for themselves.

 

The fact that there is so much confusion based headlines being misleading (and never seemingly picked up if they follow a particular narrative) is one of the great crimes of covid. It took me 5 minutes to find the latest data, yet many people in this thread I bet will still not believe that it's true. There's so much propaganda and disinformation going around.

 

I always make this point but it is such a good one (and I notice it has been co-opted by the guilty now) but if you have to lie to "encourage" people to be vaccinated, then is there really a need to be vaccinated? If the truth isn't scary enough, why does it matter?

 

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ONS figures show that about one in seven Covid victims are actually killed by something else,or that they died "with" Covid rather than from it.

In the week ending December 10th there were 764 Covid deaths registered in England and Wales but only 661 or 87% had the bug as the main cause of death.

No data exists on whether the patients said to have died with Omicron were actually killed by the new variant.

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