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I think the mask issue is an interesting one and an example of policy being made for reasons other than the public good. It always struck me as odd that mask wearing was considered effective in the Far East against SARS but not in the UK against COVID at first. When the pandemic hit the main issue filling all the news bulletins was the shortage of PPE in hospitals. Had we been told that masks were needed there would have been an even bigger shortage as the public grabbed what masks they could.

When the history of the COVID response is written there will be numerous examples of bad policy decisions and corruption in high places. There will also be the story of the outstanding work done by Scientists in developing and overseeing the distribution of the vaccines. No government ever gets everything right. Sadly, this government has got more wrong than right. 

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1 hour ago, Jacko51 said:

Had we been told that masks were needed there would have been an even bigger shortage as the public grabbed what masks they could.

100%. The shameless price gouging of hand sanitiser in March 2020, the supermarket shelves cleared by vultures, people were literally fighting in the aisles, it's inevitable. The emergency services and care homes would have been left with even less PPE at the hands of the awful selfish public. 

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2 hours ago, Jacko51 said:

I think the mask issue is an interesting one

The problem is, it is hugely hard thing to research. What do you do? Find two identical countries, tell one not to wear masks the other to do so then compare? Not doable. Current thinking as far as I can see is that they are more effective than thought. Based on where mask wearing has been part of the rules and where not,

It's not nice, but it is hardly the end of the world, so if it helps what's up? Was my attitude. Anyway here in NL we are back to it being compulsory. The biggest problem I have is forgetting the bloody thing. Mrs TW still has problems with her glasses steaming up.

And I should say my going out  posh face mask is still the football one courtesy of yourself and/or the Stitch and Bitch group at Vale.

 

Edited by toyahw

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15 hours ago, leedsvaliant said:

So the CDC isn't a strong source? Several leading medical journals aren't a strong source? Several leading figures in epidemiology isn't a strong source? Yet somebody used The Guardian as their source earlier.

There are many studies that support mask wearing but very few that base it on real world evidence and those that do tend to have been performed under clinical conditions or with a poor or biased data subset.

Now....please provide me with your counter argument, backed with sourced real world examples of why masks are effective. Like most, you're just going along with the charade because some clever sounding guy on the TV said so.

Tell me this....if this was such a deadly pandemic and the powers that be truly believed that masks were effective, why have many of them been caught out not wearing them? Why don't the royals wear them? Why did the G8 leaders not wear them? Why does Biden take his on and off just for the cameras?

It's a placebo, a chance to remind people that danger lurks on every corner, they know it's rubbish and many of them have even admitted that it's a comfort blanket.

Happily many people are starting to cotton on. Funnily enough, the only places I see masks now are slightly more upmarket places like sainsbury's and m and s. The virtue signalling middle class...look how much I care brigade.

SCHOLAR.GOOGLE.COM

Just a handful of actual peer reviewed studies. Click of a button away. All very well respected with a few more on Google scholar for you to peruse. No TV reports or guardian articles. Actual real world scientists who have tested and tested this. Enjoy the read LV 

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F1.large.jpg WWW.PNAS.ORG jit210006t1_1631033870.14962.png?Expires=2147483647&Signature=qI8Rms2afNpL0hGTFO8HjhCmaVmEYZoBB2CI7slEMMchMlzRDEKuCPQHCk6lPUBWxq775iczTy8mFLvoygez3sG75bLIJZxvIbkJ9ND6GN2Wsgzo3TKCUvlo-gUP19A-5Eol7nnlV~XI3RhegCL6vOLa6dQ1lUPZ-OyepiVeFHaeiQ9dS28alTMdmlv1CuKpjkA-vrMDImvItcZ6OL4fy0ABj~4ejcwTg3FiL5irLVmAYrXWbfdfQ9HLECTaYKko4iH8b~M5ZDX~pkDDcUM31sz-9CEs-zVD2MFOBFwRgPTdP4sowcEeOoF8lPHzEa2K9xB8KEtfAvJyjg2cLWrFkQ__&Key-Pair-Id=APKAIE5G5CRDK6RD3PGA JAMANETWORK.COM COVID-19-SM-1200px.jpg WWW.CDC.GOV SCHOLAR.GOOGLE.COM Just a handful of actual peer reviewed studies. Click of a button away. All very well respected with a few more on Google scholar for you to peruse. No TV reports or guardian articles. Actual real world scientists who have tested and tested this. Enjoy the read LV 
I've seen those before and as I said there are studies that potentially show mask wearing in a positive way. I would argue that many of those are correlation and not causation studies. For example, I could say that if you place a turnip in your car it reduces your chances of an accident. If I did this with a number of cars and there were no accidents I could claim that it was the turnip.

For most of those examples, the assumption is made that masks reduced the transmission but it could have been a number of factors.

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The problem is, it is hugely hard thing to research. What do you do? Find two identical countries, tell one not to wear masks the other to do so then compare? Not doable. Current thinking as far as I can see is that they are more effective than thought. Based on where mask wearing has been part of the rules and where not,
It's not nice, but it is hardly the end of the world, so if it helps what's up? Was my attitude. Anyway here in NL we are back to it being compulsory. The biggest problem I have is forgetting the bloody thing. Mrs TW still has problems with her glasses steaming up.
And I should say my going out  posh face mask is still the football one courtesy of yourself and/or the Stitch and Bitch group at Vale.
 


I would say that there are many examples where mask wearing has made no difference and in fact transmission has increased. Many of the most stringent mask wearing countries have had the worst outcomes, particularly on the continent. In spite of mask mandates in Wales, they were doing worse than England.

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3 hours ago, leedsvaliant said:

I've seen those before and as I said there are studies that potentially show mask wearing in a positive way. I would argue that many of those are correlation and not causation studies. For example, I could say that if you place a turnip in your car it reduces your chances of an accident. If I did this with a number of cars and there were no accidents I could claim that it was the turnip.

For most of those examples, the assumption is made that masks reduced the transmission but it could have been a number of factors.

Clearly didn't read any of them all the way through then if that is your response. 

Admit it, you've made your mind up and no amount of actual evidence will change it. 

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Clearly didn't read any of them all the way through then if that is your response. 
Admit it, you've made your mind up and no amount of actual evidence will change it. 
I did and came to the same conclusion.

I've assessed both sides and also what scientists have to say about spread and particle size and I believe the stronger argument is that masks are useless.
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This new (nu) variant is causing some consternation and there is a report that a young unvaccinated woman in Belgium has had it, having travelled to Egypt via Turkey and just suffered flu like symptoms. This suggest two things: one that it has already spread beyond South Africa; two that it may not be all that deadly.   Lets hope so and that at least the government has acted swiftly this time instead of waiting until the variant is well established here before reacting.

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I wonder how many of the covid only kills 1% so nothing to worry about crew will be up in arms about the 0.000001% of vaccinated people suffering bad side effects from the vaccine or worse dying from related issues? 

Edited by WV

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I wonder how many of the covid only kills 1% so nothing to worry about crew will be up in arms about the 0.000001% of vaccinated people suffering bad side effects from the vaccine or worse dying from related issues? 
It's not 1%. The death rate is thought to be around 0.25%. The initial assumption was 1%, hence the obscene panic.

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2 hours ago, leedsvaliant said:
5 hours ago, WV said:
I wonder how many of the covid only kills 1% so nothing to worry about crew will be up in arms about the 0.000001% of vaccinated people suffering bad side effects from the vaccine or worse dying from related issues? 

It's not 1%. The death rate is thought to be around 0.25%. The initial assumption was 1%, hence the obscene panic.

Everything is nope no need to worry, it’s an obscene panic, it is just a pretty harmless disease. This in LV cuckoo land, for the majority of us it’s quite worrying, 50,000 new cases daily, constant 100 plus daily deaths. And a new deadly variant about to hit us. Harsher measures are pretty inevitable.

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27 minutes ago, tommytunstall said:

 

Things are bad here in NL.  Hospitals overwhelmed. Cancelling chemo, surgery. Lock down again.  No doubt leedsvaliant will tell me it is all fine. It is not.

Edited by toyahw
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3 hours ago, leedsvaliant said:
6 hours ago, WV said:
I wonder how many of the covid only kills 1% so nothing to worry about crew will be up in arms about the 0.000001% of vaccinated people suffering bad side effects from the vaccine or worse dying from related issues? 

It's not 1%. The death rate is thought to be around 0.25%. The initial assumption was 1%, hence the obscene panic.

The percentage doesn't panic me. The hundreds of thousands of deaths worry me regardless. Perhaps I just have a bit more empathy or value life a little more than you. 

I'm sure you said it was 99.9% not too long ago. The difference in percentage may not mean much to you but 0.24% of the worlds population is 16.8m people. 

Edited by WV

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