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I googled the guardian referenced study:
3860.jpg?width=1200&height=630&quality=85&auto=format&fit=crop&overlay-align=bottom%2Cleft&overlay-width=100p&overlay-base64=L2ltZy9zdGF0aWMvb3ZlcmxheXMvdGctZGVmYXVsdC5wbmc&s=fca33de11d78de0fa50d5ac577bac297 WWW.THEGUARDIAN.COM  
Now I absolutely hate "fact" checkers and based on their form, I have an inclination to disbelieve them, although this one is going against the accepted narrative and the study is linked (Not had time to read, might have a look tomorrow).
mask_social_media.jpg FULLFACT.ORG
 

This isn’t what the study says. The study says that mask-wearing was “associated with” a reduction in risk but, due to the limitations of the research, “it was difficult for our review to draw a […] causal conclusion.” However, this was not mentioned in any of these articles. 

The study is a meta-analysis, which is where many studies on the same topic are pooled together and analysed collectively.

The researchers identified eight studies that they deemed appropriate to analyse the relationship between handwashing, mask-wearing and social distancing and the risk of catching Covid-19. 

All these interventions were associated with a lower risk, but in the case of handwashing, the result was not statistically significant.

 

So should we trust this science on handwashing perhaps? Or should we only trust the part of the study that suits us?

 

 

They also have quotes from the editorial in the British Medical Journal which describes the issue with observational studies. Basically, they can't sure that the observed result is from the measured behaviour, or another behaviour which was not accounted for.

 

 

So the guardian has misrepresented this study, they've described it in their headline as saying something which is not really true in the wider context of the study. It's worth considering that when you are accusing people of consuming things from secret facebook groups of youtube. As if the implication that mainstream media is somehow more trustworthy?

 

I think this demonstrates perfectly why it is not conspiratorial behaviour to actually check what we're being force fed. And secondly, why I have a complete disdain for the mainstream media. 

 

 

The Guardian has fed the virtue signalling bedwetters throughout this. It's played a shameful role in prolonging this whole sorry saga. Hopefully it will be looked back on in years to come as the ridiculous biased reporting of such outlets who ridiculed and silenced highly intelligent people. And I used to read the Guardian.

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1 hour ago, leedsvaliant said:
9 hours ago, WV said:
Absolutely wild statement with no evidence to back up. Classic LV 

Did you not read the link with many real world studies that I posted previously? Clearly not. Once again not trying to counter with any of your own arguments. You're not very good at this are you?

"Most of the real world evidence"

Do you have any evidence that it is "most"? Like real world evidence? To say most would indicate that you have a percentage of studies that support your claim. Have you just ignored ones that don't? 

Wild claims need backing up. You dont back yours up with strong sources. 

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"Most of the real world evidence"
Do you have any evidence that it is "most"? Like real world evidence? To say most would indicate that you have a percentage of studies that support your claim. Have you just ignored ones that don't? 
Wild claims need backing up. You dont back yours up with strong sources. 
So the CDC isn't a strong source? Several leading medical journals aren't a strong source? Several leading figures in epidemiology isn't a strong source? Yet somebody used The Guardian as their source earlier.

There are many studies that support mask wearing but very few that base it on real world evidence and those that do tend to have been performed under clinical conditions or with a poor or biased data subset.

Now....please provide me with your counter argument, backed with sourced real world examples of why masks are effective. Like most, you're just going along with the charade because some clever sounding guy on the TV said so.

Tell me this....if this was such a deadly pandemic and the powers that be truly believed that masks were effective, why have many of them been caught out not wearing them? Why don't the royals wear them? Why did the G8 leaders not wear them? Why does Biden take his on and off just for the cameras?

It's a placebo, a chance to remind people that danger lurks on every corner, they know it's rubbish and many of them have even admitted that it's a comfort blanket.

Happily many people are starting to cotton on. Funnily enough, the only places I see masks now are slightly more upmarket places like sainsbury's and m and s. The virtue signalling middle class...look how much I care brigade.
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8 minutes ago, leedsvaliant said:

So the CDC isn't a strong source? Several leading medical journals aren't a strong source? Several leading figures in epidemiology isn't a strong source? Yet somebody used The Guardian as their source earlier.

There are many studies that support mask wearing but very few that base it on real world evidence and those that do tend to have been performed under clinical conditions or with a poor or biased data subset.

Now....please provide me with your counter argument, backed with sourced real world examples of why masks are effective. Like most, you're just going along with the charade because some clever sounding guy on the TV said so.

Tell me this....if this was such a deadly pandemic and the powers that be truly believed that masks were effective, why have many of them been caught out not wearing them? Why don't the royals wear them? Why did the G8 leaders not wear them? Why does Biden take his on and off just for the cameras?

It's a placebo, a chance to remind people that danger lurks on every corner, they know it's rubbish and many of them have even admitted that it's a comfort blanket.

Happily many people are starting to cotton on. Funnily enough, the only places I see masks now are slightly more upmarket places like sainsbury's and m and s. The virtue signalling middle class...look how much I care brigade.

And that is why it’s still spreading 

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On 22/11/2021 at 23:57, leedsvaliant said:
On 22/11/2021 at 23:49, Regal Beagle said:
Can anyone actually engage with this one in good faith for a moment? 
 
Like this is a good summary of why I honestly believe that not only do the general use facemasks everyone is wearing, not work, but that the science clearly backs that up too. The people who have been making the decisions on public health - Whitty in the UK, Fauci in the US, they even said masks don't work to begin with. As Leedsvaliant says, the science changed in early-mid 2020. Why? based on what evidence?

The WHO admitted to the BBC that their advice had changed due to 'political lobbying '. It's just part of a wider web of smoke and mirrors, and people have bought it hook, line and sinker.

Who are you blaming the professionals or the pathetic government?

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Who are you blaming the professionals or the pathetic government?
I blame some professionals who are pushing this when they know it to be rubbish but mostly I blame the government for failing to assess both sides of the argument. They've basically followed other countries. Our local MP does not have a clue about virtually anything to do with Covid....that's his job! He should know absolutely everything.
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And that is why it’s still spreading 
It will always spread! It's a virus! There will always be cases. As much as can be done to prevent deaths from it has been done!

I'll ask the question again....when will you feel 'safe'? Because this is as good as it gets. You keep testing a million people a day then particularly in the cooler months you are going to find cases and lots of them...it doesn't mean people are ill or in the case of people that are in hospital that they are in there because of Covid. Up to 40% of all positive Covid cases are acquired in hospital, when people are already ill from other things. But if they die, they go down as a Covid statistic, even if they had terminal cancer. So, the more you test, the more cases you find and the more deaths are attributed to Covid. Can't you see this never ending cycle?

We have probably had a dormant flu virus sitting in many of us during previous winters but we never knew and quite frankly nobody cared. Because Covid has its own agent and multimillion pound marketing budget we're suddenly all so caring. It's hypocrisy of the highest order.

I look forward to looking back on this in years to come and people eventually realising the madness that has been bestowed upon us by panicked governments who basically copied each other and listened to only one side of 'The Science '.
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2 hours ago, leedsvaliant said:
3 hours ago, Fosse69 said:
Who are you blaming the professionals or the pathetic government?

I blame some professionals who are pushing this when they know it to be rubbish but mostly I blame the government for failing to assess both sides of the argument. They've basically followed other countries. Our local MP does not have a clue about virtually anything to do with Covid....that's his job! He should know absolutely everything.

Luckily we did follow other countries, otherwise their only interest was handing out contracts to their mates.

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2 hours ago, leedsvaliant said:

It will always spread! It's a virus! There will always be cases. As much as can be done to prevent deaths from it has been done!

I'll ask the question again....when will you feel 'safe'? Because this is as good as it gets. You keep testing a million people a day then particularly in the cooler months you are going to find cases and lots of them...it doesn't mean people are ill or in the case of people that are in hospital that they are in there because of Covid. Up to 40% of all positive Covid cases are acquired in hospital, when people are already ill from other things. But if they die, they go down as a Covid statistic, even if they had terminal cancer. So, the more you test, the more cases you find and the more deaths are attributed to Covid. Can't you see this never ending cycle?

We have probably had a dormant flu virus sitting in many of us during previous winters but we never knew and quite frankly nobody cared. Because Covid has its own agent and multimillion pound marketing budget we're suddenly all so caring. It's hypocrisy of the highest order.

I look forward to looking back on this in years to come and people eventually realising the madness that has been bestowed upon us by panicked governments who basically copied each other and listened to only one side of 'The Science '.

I’m sure all of the people who have lost loved ones and friends to this virus will agree with you, that it was act of madness. Unbelievable. I really don’t think those who have lost family will think like this. 

It is a virus and that virus will always spread, agreed. But that’s Dosent mean we shouldn’t try and stop that spread, surely? I do agree with vaccines / lockdowns maybe all possible has been done? Yearly boosters like flu? 

Not sure I get your comparison to flu, certain people have a flu jab each year to stop it killing / making you Ill, why should covid be different? It was a new virus, that out of nowhere started killing people and overcrowding hospitals, i don’t believe it has anything  to do with a multi million marketing budget . As I have posted previously maybe people have lost someone close to this virus, maybe that’s why people were worried. 

The issue imo moving forwards is that we have a lot of extremely selfish people in this country. ( I’m not aiming this at those who haven’t had a vaccine per say). We have a certain demographic that literally couldn’t give a <ovf censored> about anyone else, with this demographic I just can’t see it ever really improving.

So your probably right or close to anyway, it was probably at its best a couple of months ago. The more you test the more you find, correct - again though, not sure why this is a bad thing (agreed it sways figures because of the increase in testing) agree that figures aren’t always accurate with deaths also, but I’d still argue there will still be a great number who have solely passed away due to covid  

I just wish everyone would think about others, you may not agree with putting a mask on in a shop but I 100% believe it does make a difference. If everyone just had a bit more respect for each other this would have blown over. I personally feel safe from covid, I’ve had both jabs and I don’t imagine that it would affect me as it has some, but for example my wife who is pregnant was told throughout not to have the jabs so is potentially vulnerable, (it’s safe for most, but not fall all). If people cared about other people then surely cases would naturally drop, problem is (again sorry to label) we have a certain demographic who couldn’t care less. 

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I’m sure all of the people who have lost loved ones and friends to this virus will agree with you, that it was act of madness. Unbelievable. I really don’t think those who have lost family will think like this. 

It is a virus and that virus will always spread, agreed. But that’s Dosent mean we shouldn’t try and stop that spread, surely? I do agree with vaccines / lockdowns maybe all possible has been done? Yearly boosters like flu? 
Not sure I get your comparison to flu, certain people have a flu jab each year to stop it killing / making you Ill, why should covid be different? It was a new virus, that out of nowhere started killing people and overcrowding hospitals, i don’t believe it has anything  to do with a multi million marketing budget . As I have posted previously maybe people have lost someone close to this virus, maybe that’s why people were worried. 
The issue imo moving forwards is that we have a lot of extremely selfish people in this country. ( I’m not aiming this at those who haven’t had a vaccine per say). We have a certain demographic that literally couldn’t give a about anyone else, with this demographic I just can’t see it ever really improving.
So your probably right or close to anyway, it was probably at its best a couple of months ago. The more you test the more you find, correct - again though, not sure why this is a bad thing (agreed it sways figures because of the increase in testing) agree that figures aren’t always accurate with deaths also, but I’d still argue there will still be a great number who have solely passed away due to covid  
I just wish everyone would think about others, you may not agree with putting a mask on in a shop but I 100% believe it does make a difference. If everyone just had a bit more respect for each other this would have blown over. I personally feel safe from covid, I’ve had both jabs and I don’t imagine that it would affect me as it has some, but for example my wife who is pregnant was told throughout not to have the jabs so is potentially vulnerable, (it’s safe for most, but not fall all). If people cared about other people then surely cases would naturally drop, problem is (again sorry to label) we have a certain demographic who couldn’t care less. 


Fundamentally I agree with a lot of what you say. I'd disagree that people against all this are selfish however. All this closing of things and cancelling operations has simply shifted deaths on to a younger generation, many of whom have yet to live their life. I find it selfish that people don't contemplate these repercussions. As much as you might want people to, people aren't just going to play along to look virtuous because they understand the vast damage that even mask wearing in front of children can do and all the other huge impacts. Sometimes you have to make a stand, even if it makes you look bad. I care about my kids and their future and certainly wouldn't want their future to be ruined by keeping me or my parents 'safe'. We know who this virus affects predominantly, so why did we use a sledgehammer to crack a nut? Why did we move infected people back into carehomes which massively inflated the initial death toll?

People have also been sold a massively overplayed risk factor. Even in the most vulnerable and immunocompromised people, the chances of illness and death from Covid is extremely small. That's why people are scared because they have zero understanding of the actual risk it poses to them and their family. In fact the IFR for Covid is currently not much worse than a bad flu year. Yes, it's more transmissable but not vastly more deadly.

I agree that people have previously taken flu vaccines but the population at large has never tested itself for flu before going out and about. How many of us can say that we've stayed at home for days when we've had a bad cold that could have been flu? We've probably all inadvertently passed on a virus in the past.

In terms of figures of people passing away solely because of Covid, I believe the figure is around 6,000 in the UK. Italy scaled down their official death toll by around 97% when just including people who had died solely from Covid. Most had at least 2 serious underlying conditions.

Unfortunately a 'belief' that something makes a difference is not something that will necessarily make a difference in terms of masks. It's like people who believe that praying makes a difference, but there's virtually no real world evidence to back it up.

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Agree with some of your post. I don’t agree that masks don’t make a difference and they’re a many studies which show they do. 

Agree partly Re younger lives, I’m 28, had my wedding cancelled 3 times and lost a <ovf censored> load of money because of it, can’t go into the hospital for important meetings with doctors with my wife as it’s the person rule ect, I know some have had it way worse in terms of mental health and I’m lucky in that respect.
I’m not sure it’s been disregarded though, I know in my workplace mental health is really at the forefront with homeworking ect especially during the lockdowns. The issue I have is that I don’t think some make a stand. Some are just in general, pricks. Everyone can identify them, the same kinds of people who ignore other rules and think they’re too good to be challenged on it. I don’t think everyone against having a jab is selfish, you can still not have a jab and distance yourself correctly from others / not see certain vulnerable family / see them when you haven’t been out ect. But there are a large number who just don’t care, I’m trying to put it kindly without being offensive but the kind of demographic that turn up to vale vs Stoke for a fight and don’t support either side. 

I get the point Re cracking the nut, not something I had considered to be honest. Makes sense but I don’t think it would practically work, I can’t imagine people of a certain age being particularly happy that those younger are still able to do what they can’t. Although in principal it does make sense. 

Im not sure what damage wearing a mask does in front of children? 

It was deadly when the hospitals were full though, when the pandemic hit it was deadly. I still think any elderly person vaccinated or not would be frightened stiff about catching covid. Knowing a few who have passed away (of elderly age) I don’t agree it’s an overplayed risk at all. 

I imagine that’s fact (flu) and could well be the case for covid in 50 years time. But I don’t think at the moment the situations are the same. 

I still think that counts. Just because someone had a health condition Dosent mean covid didn’t play any part in the their death. They’re the exact people who needed protecting from it. 

There are occasions I would say covid wasn’t the cause. Eg if someone was essentially already on their death bed in hospital from something else and they then contract covid. 

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Agree with some of your post. I don’t agree that masks don’t make a difference and they’re a many studies which show they do. 
Agree partly Re younger lives, I’m 28, had my wedding cancelled 3 times and lost a load of money because of it, can’t go into the hospital for important meetings with doctors with my wife as it’s the person rule ect, I know some have had it way worse in terms of mental health and I’m lucky in that respect.
I’m not sure it’s been disregarded though, I know in my workplace mental health is really at the forefront with homeworking ect especially during the lockdowns. The issue I have is that I don’t think some make a stand. Some are just in general, pricks. Everyone can identify them, the same kinds of people who ignore other rules and think they’re too good to be challenged on it. I don’t think everyone against having a jab is selfish, you can still not have a jab and distance yourself correctly from others / not see certain vulnerable family / see them when you haven’t been out ect. But there are a large number who just don’t care, I’m trying to put it kindly without being offensive but the kind of demographic that turn up to vale vs Stoke for a fight and don’t support either side. 
I get the point Re cracking the nut, not something I had considered to be honest. Makes sense but I don’t think it would practically work, I can’t imagine people of a certain age being particularly happy that those younger are still able to do what they can’t. Although in principal it does make sense. 
Im not sure what damage wearing a mask does in front of children? 

It was deadly when the hospitals were full though, when the pandemic hit it was deadly. I still think any elderly person vaccinated or not would be frightened stiff about catching covid. Knowing a few who have passed away (of elderly age) I don’t agree it’s an overplayed risk at all. 
I imagine that’s fact (flu) and could well be the case for covid in 50 years time. But I don’t think at the moment the situations are the same. 
I still think that counts. Just because someone had a health condition Dosent mean covid didn’t play any part in the their death. They’re the exact people who needed protecting from it. 
There are occasions I would say covid wasn’t the cause. Eg if someone was essentially already on their death bed in hospital from something else and they then contract covid. 


Excellent response valiant 593 , well balanced and understanding both sides of the argument. I can't disagree with much of what you say. I agree that there are many idiots about and unfortunately you're right to stereotype about the sort of person. I think there's a difference between making a stand for what you believe in and being a dick about it. I'm frustrated with people's fear over this but I wouldn't get aggressive.

I kind of understand those over the age of 70 being wary of the virus but if you were to show people their true chances of becoming ill and dying I'm certain there wouldn't be the overly zealous response.

The difficulty with attribution of death is would these people have died then or a short while after of their actual ailment? I hope we get to the bottom of that one as it gives us a true reflection of how deadly the virus is.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on the masks. I just can't get my head around why every major health organisation did a complete uturn without any real new evidence. In terms of harms, there have been a number of studies that suggest that prolonged face mask wearing is significantly bad for you. In addition, babies in particular rely on facial expressions to develop...it can't be good to not see people's faces.

I welcome debate from people who can back up their argument with well reasoned points.

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11 hours ago, WV said:

"Most of the real world evidence"

Do you have any evidence that it is "most"? Like real world evidence? To say most would indicate that you have a percentage of studies that support your claim. Have you just ignored ones that don't? 

Wild claims need backing up. You dont back yours up with strong sources. 

Wow this is getting desperate.

 

1. "most" actually implies "not all"  - so how has leeds valiant ignored studies that don't support their claim? If anything it is explicitly acknolwedge the existence of contradictory studies isn't it?

2. Leeds valiant has posted a list of studies that he is basing his statement on. Why are you ignoring that?

3. If you are asking for a quantifiable percentage to define the word "most" then why would also argue point number 1? And that's not really a good faith argument is it? I'll give you a clue, it's somewhere between 50.1% and 99.9%. 

 

So this post is the usual standard it seems. Zero evidence to back up any opposing view and accusing people of doing the exact thing you are doing in the very same post (ignoring evidence that doesn't suit).

 

 

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5 hours ago, Fosse69 said:

Luckily we did follow other countries, otherwise their only interest was handing out contracts to their mates.

I totally understand why you think there has been corruption Fosse, lots of people have made a lot of money out of this pandemic...

I ask this in complete good faith as I'm genuinely interested to know....Given that you are ok with believing that the Government is capable of corruption (and by corruption I mean that I think there are reasonable suspicions of fraud and dishonesty and possibly bribery)...then do you also have suspicions that the Government is corrupt in policy making throughout covid, specifically in regards to pushing a single narrative of vaccination and encouraging the suppression of dissenting/critical voices?

 

Specifically, I suppose i'm asking, if you believe the government is corrupt enough to hand out contracts to their friends, then are they also corrupt enough to be setting policies and acting in a way which is not in the interests of the people, but in interests of others....such as big pharma?

 

If not, why not?

 

 

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6 minutes ago, Regal Beagle said:

I totally understand why you think there has been corruption Fosse, lots of people have made a lot of money out of this pandemic...

I ask this in complete good faith as I'm genuinely interested to know....Given that you are ok with believing that the Government is capable of corruption (and by corruption I mean that I think there are reasonable suspicions of fraud and dishonesty and possibly bribery)...then do you also have suspicions that the Government is corrupt in policy making throughout covid, specifically in regards to pushing a single narrative of vaccination and encouraging the suppression of dissenting/critical voices?

 

Specifically, I suppose i'm asking, if you believe the government is corrupt enough to hand out contracts to their friends, then are they also corrupt enough to be setting policies and acting in a way which is not in the interests of the people, but in interests of others....such as big pharma?

 

If not, why not?

 

 

The Government is certainly corrupt and have lined their own pockets with PPE, T and T, Randox etc etc.  Are they correct in the policies to deal with COVID, I certainly hope not, is their money to be made with this option? As I have stated previously I will go with the scientists until proven otherwise. I do not participate in listening to anti vaxxer, anti COVID prevention sites on Social Media

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