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2 hours ago, leedsvaliant said:

 if the world hadn't gone nuts for a fairly non lethal virus.

You're also, again attributing cases to illness. Most cases aren't ill.

 

LV, It is the ease of transmission that makes this virus a problem, the fact that it is a "fairly non lethal virus" is a massive relief to the world. If a large number of people genuinely have the virus it makes for a sizeable number of people who need the help of a hospital/doctor hence the various measures put in place so hospitals can cope etc etc.

Given the availability of vaccines and now drugs to combat the virus it's now time for the world to get back to as "normal" as possible. Because this virus is so transmissible and given the ease of travel around the world the sooner we get used to living with the Sars-Cov-2 virus the better. That's not to say that certain countries shouldn't lockdown etc if the case load/deaths etc  get too high.

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LV, It is the ease of transmission that makes this virus a problem, the fact that it is a "fairly non lethal virus" is a massive relief to the world. If a large number of people genuinely have the virus it makes for a sizeable number of people who need the help of a hospital/doctor hence the various measures put in place so hospitals can cope etc etc.
Given the availability of vaccines and now drugs to combat the virus it's now time for the world to get back to as "normal" as possible. Because this virus is so transmissible and given the ease of travel around the world the sooner we get used to living with the Sars-Cov-2 virus the better. That's not to say that certain countries shouldn't lockdown etc if the case load/deaths etc  get too high.
I kind of agree with some of that but the whole basis that this could get out of hand was based on modelling that used a wildly inaccurate infection to fatality ratio. Hence the prediction of 500,000 deaths in the UK without action. The proof that this was never likely to be the case is in the fact of the places that took a lighter touch or very little action did not see the devastation that was predicted. There's also a lot of misattribution of cause of death going on which is clear when you look at all cause mortality.

Lockdown should never be the go to at any point, not only because of the massive social, societal and mental harms that it inflicts. Not to mention the massive harms to future generations. We have seen that there are other, more moderate ways of coping with a fairly benign virus, particularly if you are under the age of 80. If there was a 5 or 10% fatality rate and it was affecting all ages then I would be the first to ask for protections to be put in place. I can't help thinking that this has 'the boy who cried wolf ' connotations, whereby if something really serious came along people wouldn't be so compliant. We must never again use lockdown to protect the NHS. It's there to protect us, not the other way around. And if it's not fit to increase capacity in the winter months then something needs doing about it now.

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8 minutes ago, leedsvaliant said:

I kind of agree with some of that but the whole basis that this could get out of hand was based on modelling that used a wildly inaccurate infection to fatality ratio. Hence the prediction of 500,000 deaths in the UK without action. The proof that this was never likely to be the case is in the fact of the places that took a lighter touch or very little action did not see the devastation that was predicted. There's also a lot of misattribution of cause of death going on which is clear when you look at all cause mortality.

Lockdown should never be the go to at any point, not only because of the massive social, societal and mental harms that it inflicts. Not to mention the massive harms to future generations. We have seen that there are other, more moderate ways of coping with a fairly benign virus, particularly if you are under the age of 80. If there was a 5 or 10% fatality rate and it was affecting all ages then I would be the first to ask for protections to be put in place. I can't help thinking that this has 'the boy who cried wolf ' connotations, whereby if something really serious came along people wouldn't be so compliant. We must never again use lockdown to protect the NHS. It's there to protect us, not the other way around. And if it's not fit to increase capacity in the winter months then something needs doing about it now.

The more people who get the virus, the more people will die from the virus. No restrictions means the virus will spread more easily. It is quite simple really. 

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12 minutes ago, leedsvaliant said:

I kind of agree with some of that but the whole basis that this could get out of hand was based on modelling that used a wildly inaccurate infection to fatality ratio. Hence the prediction of 500,000 deaths in the UK without action. The proof that this was never likely to be the case is in the fact of the places that took a lighter touch or very little action did not see the devastation that was predicted. There's also a lot of misattribution of cause of death going on which is clear when you look at all cause mortality.

Lockdown should never be the go to at any point, not only because of the massive social, societal and mental harms that it inflicts. Not to mention the massive harms to future generations. We have seen that there are other, more moderate ways of coping with a fairly benign virus, particularly if you are under the age of 80. If there was a 5 or 10% fatality rate and it was affecting all ages then I would be the first to ask for protections to be put in place. I can't help thinking that this has 'the boy who cried wolf ' connotations, whereby if something really serious came along people wouldn't be so compliant. We must never again use lockdown to protect the NHS. It's there to protect us, not the other way around. And if it's not fit to increase capacity in the winter months then something needs doing about it now.

I would <ovf censored> love to see you go up to the guy in my office who has just lost his wife to Covid and describe it as "a fairly benign virus". You could go and tell my colleague who lost her mum to the virus too, after you'd picked your teeth up off the floor.

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1 hour ago, mr.hobblesworth said:

I would <ovf censored> love to see you go up to the guy in my office who has just lost his wife to Covid and describe it as "a fairly benign virus". You could go and tell my colleague who lost her mum to the virus too, after you'd picked your teeth up off the floor.

He will tell you not to be emotional. And tell your colleague to not be so emotional. It only kills 1% so what's the big deal. 

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The more people who get the virus, the more people will die from the virus. No restrictions means the virus will spread more easily. It is quite simple really. 
But you're not taking into account that many people will have natural immunity, many people will have had it and not known. You're also ignoring the fact that the infection fatality rate was way overblown in the early days and was never likely to kill off all its hosts. A virus can't spread if it kills off all its hosts. Yes, it spreads easily (although not as easily as it was initially thought) but it's nowhere near as deadly as initially thought. In fact its current IFR is thought to be akin to a bad flu season. Hardly worth shutting down the world for.

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I would love to see you go up to the guy in my office who has just lost his wife to Covid and describe it as "a fairly benign virus". You could go and tell my colleague who lost her mum to the virus too, after you'd picked your teeth up off the floor.


Whilst I have significant sympathy with anyone who has lost a loved one, you talk of a colleague's mum...how old was she? Did she have underlying health conditions? Was she already poorly? That's not taking away the tragedy of losing a loved one but you can see how labelling every death as Covid makes this into a much bigger issue. Older people are going to die unfortunately, nobody lives forever.

Your colleague's wife, again whilst terribly sad, what's the back story? She may have been perfectly healthy but just like the unfortunate 50,000 people that died excessively in 2017/18, she's been dreadfully unlucky. Sadly, people die when they're not expected to, frome all manner of things.

Again, I'm not heartless but is that death worth more than the young person who missed out on cancer treatment, or the young person who hung themselves because of the effects of lockdown? Or the young person who lost their job and is spiralling into depression and an early grave? I'm not sure whether consideration is ever given to that. A virus death is not worth more than any other death, they are all tragic for the friends and family.

However, we do have to take anecdotal evidence and emotional stories out of the equation when making decisions about not only those people living now, but future generations. My grandad was a kind and loving man but I'm certain he would not want his great grandchildren to have missed out on school just to 'keep him safe'.

By any definition, this is a benign virus for the vast, vast majority of people under 75. I'm nearly 40 and the chances of me dying are akin to being struck by lightning. Even at 65 you've got a tiny fraction of a chance of serious illness or death. If you take out all the underlying health issue deaths, you're left with about 6000 deaths directly of Covid in 18 months. That's not saying it isn't real or it isn't serious for certain age groups or that it doesn't affect younger people, but the facts are that 99.97%(at least) people will survive.

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58 minutes ago, leedsvaliant said:
2 hours ago, Fosse69 said:
If masks reduce spread, worthwhile to do.

They don't, unless high quality, high grade and changed at least 10 times a day and never messed with or touched. In the general population most real life studies show them as useless. They're just a placebo.

Of course they reduce, but do not stop, still worthwhile

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Of course they reduce, but do not stop, still worthwhile
In the real world, I'm not so sure. The reduction will be absolutely negligible and there are studies which show mask wearing to be potentially harmful. In fact, most experts and bodies agreed up until June last year and then did an about turn....funny that isn't it?

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1 minute ago, leedsvaliant said:
4 minutes ago, Fosse69 said:
Of course they reduce, but do not stop, still worthwhile

In the real world, I'm not so sure. The reduction will be absolutely negligible and there are studies which show mask wearing to be potentially harmful. In fact, most experts and bodies agreed up until June last year and then did an about turn....funny that isn't it?

50% reduction has been quoted.

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On 21/11/2021 at 14:00, WV said:

The irony of this post coming from someone who won't have a bad word said about the tories is perfect. 

Its going to be a long way back to reality for you from that rabbit hole your head has fallen down. 

you and LV are why access to the Internet for everyone was a bad idea. 

 

"We don't have covid on top, its just replaced other causes"

Would love some elaboration on this even if just for Sunday entertainment 

 

 

On 21/11/2021 at 16:24, WV said:

Yeah, covid isn't real, all governments in the world are in on some huge conspiracy and only LV and RB are in on it. Tin hats on. 

 

You literally cannot debate without saying things that aren't true, and simply dismissing posts without engaging.

 

I find it staggering how you are defending the Government whilst accusing me of defending the Government. Are you that deluded or will you sink to any level to brainwash the rest of us?

 

You are the one defending policies which defy the science. You are the one believing and promoting ideas which are simply not true. And you are trying to gaslight and railroad people into agreeing with you.

 

If you have to lie to debate, you have already lost. It's that simple WV.

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On 21/11/2021 at 21:51, WV said:

I don't counter argue with people who believe the earth is flat, or that the moon landing was fake either. Mainly for the same reason I dont with you. You are unable to change your mind even in the face of overwhelming evidence  Debate can lead to changed minds but you are not capable hence this back and forth we have. 

These posts are genuinely frightening. That anyone can post this and believe it to be true is beyond me.

 

You post no evidence. You post no arguments. You post things that are not true and constantly avoid engaging with any point that is made. You are describing yourself and the lack of self awareness is a huge problem.

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29 minutes ago, Regal Beagle said:

These posts are genuinely frightening. That anyone can post this and believe it to be true is beyond me.

 

You post no evidence. You post no arguments. You post things that are not true and constantly avoid engaging with any point that is made. You are describing yourself and the lack of self awareness is a huge problem.

Unbelievable. Should these comments not be directed to yourself, you are certainly not at the back of the queue when it comes to posting rubbish

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