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robf

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Uk has almost ten times more cases than the majority of other European countries, and pro rata with the deaths. From my recent experience Europe is more stringent in their measures. While the Tories follow the LV and VPL way, it’s only like a cold let’s let it rip.
We're not on cases again are we? How many times does this need explaining to you? Your argument is more with the Tories (I don't like them either) and it's clouding your judgement. Look at the statistics, in any other year they would be completely unremarkable and you wouldn't have even blinked.
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I post a lot of questions on here that no one can ever answer, usually backed up by credible sources (Government/WHO/CDC etc), and still get told I'm "stupid", "an idiot", "digging a hole", "disrespectful" etc.
Here's another one:
Can anyone tell me where the flu has gone please? We seem to have found a cure just as COVID entered our world!
image.png.27bf7ea77faaa0727043a7ea694b17e8.png
Source: https://gis.cdc.gov/grasp/fluview/pedfludeath.html
 
It's clear that many, many deaths that would have happened anyway have been rebadged.

The basis of the argument from those who have supported all this nonsense is 'but people have died '. When you break it down to them in terms of stats and risks they still can't see the wood for the trees.

That's what effective propoganda does. Or people that just go along with it all because they have never even thought that maybe the government hasn't got their best intentions at heart.
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On 02/10/2021 at 21:20, leedsvaliant said:


 

 


When you say A lot, please define. When you say 'very ill' please define. Presumably a lot of these contacts of yours diagnosed themselves as ill?

Is that 'very ill' like they were in bed for 3 or 4 days like a bad fever? Or 'very ill' they were all in hospital for weeks on end? I think you mentioned that a couple might have needed hospital treatment, but again did they really warrant it or did they panic because of what they heard in the news? I'm sure they were pretty poorly but they're not dead and have recovered right?

When my wife has a cold, she would define herself as 'very ill ' but if I had the same cold I would probably consider it a slight sniffle. I don't doubt that it whacks some people for 6 but does that really warrant the excessive restrictions we've had over the last 18 months?

I don't overplay it or underplay it. It is what it is, a relatively dangerous virus for a small percentage of elderly and vulnerable people. No matter how many 'young and healthy ' people supposedly suffer, the statistics as I showed above prove that any other cause of death has way more of a possibility than Covid. I'm just using the data and facts, whether you think that says I'm underplaying it is a matter of opinion.

Friends and work colleagues not <ovf censored> contacts. Easily double figures. as in 4 people I know 1 close friend and 3 work colleagues went to hospital, another person (friend of my wife’s mum) mid 50s died towards the beginning of the pandemic before the vaccine.

1 close friend a personal trainer in his 20s wasn’t jabbed and was stuck in bed for 2 weeks unable to move. 

2 teachers that work with my wife. Both off for numerous weeks one since has been fainting and had to be referred for furthers tests. Both are still feeling the effects months on. They didn’t self diagnose. They didn’t hear that covid is bad from the news. They were ill.

The difference between covid and other causes of deaths is that covid can be passed on and caught. Before the vaccine it was killing people. There is question to this. 

Stop questioning people on this thread. A lot of people have lost family / friends due to covid. You describing people Im close to as ‘contacts’ is an insult and no they didn’t <ovf censored> diagnose themselves. Yes the restrictions were necessary. Without the deaths would have been far far higher, Im really not sure why you don’t understand this. People shouldn’t have to explain their own personal circumstances to you. 
 

‘supposedly suffer’

’contacts’

‘Diagnosed themselves as ill’ 

‘heard it in the news’

Embarrassment. 

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29 minutes ago, leedsvaliant said:
On 03/10/2021 at 08:26, valeparklife said:
I can say the same about people that can't see reality, and believe that all of these draconian measures are to "help" the people.
Show me one thing I've said that hasn't been backed up by evidence? I've deliberately sourced everything I've mentioned.
Even with the truth staring people in the face, they choose not to see the obvious.
Quite scary really how so many people have blindly followed the "rules", when I could name a large number of events that don't add up.
"It's only two weeks to flatten the curve".

This is the issue. If the government told people to hop on one leg and walk around with a patch over one eye, they would do it. The lack of understanding of the general public is frightening.

Out of interest what other laws/rules (not covid related) should we not obey that the government tell us to do? 

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On 02/10/2021 at 15:38, valeparklife said:

But I know A LOT of people who have had it more than once and were fine?

The survival rate is 99.9%+ so why would you believe the insanity going on around the world is justified with these numbers?

Because I know people that have died / been ill. I also know people (sister) who have had it and been fine. I think it’s just an appreciation that it does affect people. Something that LV Dosent realise / Dosent care about.

Lockdowns were necessarily, without those numbers would be worse. 

Maybe in the future whenever another virus appears, we should all just ignore and watch the chaos and deaths unfold? 

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On 02/10/2021 at 16:34, valeparklife said:

60 million people a year die. Why do people deny reality when discussing COVID? People die. You can't live forever.

Locking people in houses, police wrestling people to the floor, shooting rescue dogs etc etc surely isn't worth a virus you have a 99.9%+ chance of surviving?

Why is everyone so terrified?

Surely if there is a way to stop people from dying we take it? Should we just stop all cancer research? People die anyway.

Did you think this at the start of the pandemic when it was at its worst? 

Nobody is denying reality. If there is a way to stop a virus and reduce the impact why wouldn’t everyone want to take that action? If we were just left to do as we please it could have been chaos, I just don’t see the problem with fighting a virus head on and trying to stop people dying. Just because people die everyday from other things Dosent mean we should try and stop something else that can kill people. Why bother with flu jabs? People will die anyway. Don’t get the argument. 
Even if the death rate is low, it Dosent mean it should be ignored and allowed to get worse. Vaccine and lockdowns blatantly helped. 

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1 hour ago, ginge said:

Out of interest what other laws/rules (not covid related) should we not obey that the government tell us to do? 

You can't obey the law because it does not tell you what to do or what not to do. It simply tells you what penalties are imposable "if" you do things, but it doesn't say you can't do them.

We could get into a lengthy discussion about common law, acts and statutes and other forms of imposition, like policy, emergency decrees etc,  but that wouldn't be very productive.

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Because I know people that have died / been ill. I also know people (sister) who have had it and been fine. I think it’s just an appreciation that it does affect people. Something that LV Dosent realise / Dosent care about.
Lockdowns were necessarily, without those numbers would be worse. 
Maybe in the future whenever another virus appears, we should all just ignore and watch the chaos and deaths unfold? 


I do care about people dying, but it seems that people have only started to give a stuff about old people dying of Covid. They didn't give a stuff before when old people died of flu or pneumonia.

You have zero evidence or proof that things would have been a lot worse without lockdowns, except for dodgy modelling and dodgy testing. In fact, many places that took a lighter touch fared a lot better. There's zero correlation between lockdown and performance. Plus, there's never any consideration for the lives lost through lockdown itself, which is likely to exceed those lost from Covid.

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Friends and work colleagues not contacts. Easily double figures. as in 4 people I know 1 close friend and 3 work colleagues went to hospital, another person (friend of my wife’s mum) mid 50s died towards the beginning of the pandemic before the vaccine.
1 close friend a personal trainer in his 20s wasn’t jabbed and was stuck in bed for 2 weeks unable to move. 
2 teachers that work with my wife. Both off for numerous weeks one since has been fainting and had to be referred for furthers tests. Both are still feeling the effects months on. They didn’t self diagnose. They didn’t hear that covid is bad from the news. They were ill.
The difference between covid and other causes of deaths is that covid can be passed on and caught. Before the vaccine it was killing people. There is question to this. 
Stop questioning people on this thread. A lot of people have lost family / friends due to covid. You describing people Im close to as ‘contacts’ is an insult and no they didn’t diagnose themselves. Yes the restrictions were necessary. Without the deaths would have been far far higher, Im really not sure why you don’t understand this. People shouldn’t have to explain their own personal circumstances to you. 
 
‘supposedly suffer’
’contacts’
‘Diagnosed themselves as ill’ 
‘heard it in the news’
Embarrassment. 
Again, what is the evidence that these long term effects were Covid related? Apart from a positive test? Long Covid has been massively overplayed, as admitted by scientists recently.

I'm not doubting these people were ill but you must have been significantly unlucky to know so many people that were affected. I've said before that I know thousands of people indirectly and I know of one person really badly affected and a handful who had flu like symptoms.

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39 minutes ago, leedsvaliant said:

Again, what is the evidence that these long term effects were Covid related? Apart from a positive test? Long Covid has been massively overplayed, as admitted by scientists recently.

I'm not doubting these people were ill but you must have been significantly unlucky to know so many people that were affected. I've said before that I know thousands of people indirectly and I know of one person really badly affected and a handful who had flu like symptoms.
 

The problem is LV you think you know everything, your patronising comments annoy a lot of people, let me explain to you, what is the evidence, it’s all been overplayed etc etc. Well those comments may please Valeparklife, but I for one find them, incorrect, over the top, I am more than capable of listening to news bulletins, reading newspapers, listening to Scientists, who believe it or not know a lot more than you.

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The problem is LV you think you know everything, your patronising comments annoy a lot of people, let me explain to you, what is the evidence, it’s all been overplayed etc etc. Well those comments may please Valeparklife, but I for one find them, incorrect, over the top, I am more than capable of listening to news bulletins, reading newspapers, listening to Scientists, who believe it or not know a lot more than you.


But you, like the vast majority of the population, have simply bought what you have heard from the government and their scientists and whatever has been said on the BBC
, without even the merest hint that they might wrong. Myself and Valeparklife have provided evidence, data and facts. All you have provided is emotive arguments that I'm afraid don't wash.

I don't doubt that these scientists know a lot more than me but there are also scientists, doctors and medical professionals who fundamentally disagree with the course of action taken. Including some of the world's leading scientists.

It only rubs people up the wrong way because they have been programmed to determine anyone who thinks the last 18 months have been bonkers as some sort of nutter. Like I said, there should be two sides to the debate but it seems only one side wants to listen to what they want to hear.

I miss Andyregs on this thread. At least he backed up his arguments with facts and proper research, no matter how much we disagreed.

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18 minutes ago, leedsvaliant said:


 

 


But you, like the vast majority of the population, have simply bought what you have heard from the government and their scientists and whatever has been said on the BBC
, without even the merest hint that they might wrong. Myself and Valeparklife have provided evidence, data and facts. All you have provided is emotive arguments that I'm afraid don't wash.

I don't doubt that these scientists know a lot more than me but there are also scientists, doctors and medical professionals who fundamentally disagree with the course of action taken. Including some of the world's leading scientists.

It only rubs people up the wrong way because they have been programmed to determine anyone who thinks the last 18 months have been bonkers as some sort of nutter. Like I said, there should be two sides to the debate but it seems only one side wants to listen to what they want to hear.

I miss Andyregs on this thread. At least he backed up his arguments with facts and proper research, no matter how much we disagreed.

 

How many more times!!! Yes I do listen to the scientists, because they know a damn site more than you 

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2 hours ago, leedsvaliant said:

Again, what is the evidence that these long term effects were Covid related? Apart from a positive test? Long Covid has been massively overplayed, as admitted by scientists recently.

I'm not doubting these people were ill but you must have been significantly unlucky to know so many people that were affected. I've said before that I know thousands of people indirectly and I know of one person really badly affected and a handful who had flu like symptoms.
 

What? What evidence do you want. 
1) they had underlying health conditions. 
2) they then woke up ill whilst working during the pandemic. 
3)went to hospital. 
4) still suffering the same effects. 
Why would all of these people be ill from something completely random!!! 

Ok LV the people I know who had covid, went to hospital and are still have effects are talking bull <ovf censored> and making it all up, your scientists know via fact that it’s over played. I know loads that have been ill through work. I also know loads that haven’t been ill. This isn’t a one off. Every person I speak to at work knows someone else who was very ill, knows some that had flu conditions and knows some that had no side effects. 

You are doubting ‘these people’ it’s exactly what you are doing. The same as you doubted me and called friends and family ‘contacts’. Stop being patronising, people have different experiences. 

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1 hour ago, leedsvaliant said:


 

 


But you, like the vast majority of the population, have simply bought what you have heard from the government and their scientists and whatever has been said on the BBC
, without even the merest hint that they might wrong. Myself and Valeparklife have provided evidence, data and facts. All you have provided is emotive arguments that I'm afraid don't wash.

I don't doubt that these scientists know a lot more than me but there are also scientists, doctors and medical professionals who fundamentally disagree with the course of action taken. Including some of the world's leading scientists.

It only rubs people up the wrong way because they have been programmed to determine anyone who thinks the last 18 months have been bonkers as some sort of nutter. Like I said, there should be two sides to the debate but it seems only one side wants to listen to what they want to hear.

I miss Andyregs on this thread. At least he backed up his arguments with facts and proper research, no matter how much we disagreed.

 

No. Everyone sees you side of the story but you patronise everyone and make out that covid is like stubbing your toe. It rubs people up the wrong way because you ignore every other argument and ignore the fact that others on the thread have had a different experience. There are scientists that disagree with the course of action and there are also many scientists that agree with it. 
 

People’s life experiences don’t wash. See this is the issue. Have your opinion, back it up. That’s fine but stop doubting people’s actual stories. There will be facts that go against your argument, I’m not going to troll through google to find them though. 
 

There is two sides to a debate. But your not worth debating with. My previous posts have highlighted your patronising wording. You don’t debate. You preach. There is no other opinion in your mind and you are 100% right. That is not a debate. 

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2 hours ago, leedsvaliant said:


 

 


I do care about people dying, but it seems that people have only started to give a stuff about old people dying of Covid. They didn't give a stuff before when old people died of flu or pneumonia.

You have zero evidence or proof that things would have been a lot worse without lockdowns, except for dodgy modelling and dodgy testing. In fact, many places that took a lighter touch fared a lot better. There's zero correlation between lockdown and performance. Plus, there's never any consideration for the lives lost through lockdown itself, which is likely to exceed those lost from Covid.

 

I think if you have a brain it’s clear that without lockdowns the NHS would have crumbled and cases would have risen. I don’t know how thats even an argument. The modelling is always dodgy when it’s not fitting your argument isn’t? 

Ive agreed with you numerous times about mental health issues throughout covid. 
 

Of course people care about flu and pneumonia. They have been around for a while. Covid hasn’t. That’s the difference. 

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