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41 minutes ago, valeparklife said:

I posted the ONS stats for this a few pages back. The survival rate during 2020 (before the vaccine) for under-65 year olds is 99.9841%

The thing I can't understand is why is everyone literally petrified of a virus that has a 0.0159% chance of killing them, yet for decades, cancer has been responsible for killing 1 in 4 people and no one batted an eyelid?

And can someone tell me why people are more scared of something that spreads over something that doesn't, even if the thing that doesn't spread has more chance of killing you? 

I think most people are much more scared of cancer, I know I personally am, I think it’s more that covid was something new and at that time was killing people in large numbers or at least contributing to the deaths. 
 

What is the death rate overall before the vaccine. It’s not fair again to focus on just over 65s are we to just forget about them?

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1 hour ago, leedsvaliant said:


 

 


Wow. What can you say to that? Incredible. You are the very reason that this country has lost the plot over this.

1) yes, the percentage of people surviving has been well over 99% throughout, vaccine or not. Whitty said at the start that most people will suffer mild illness. Even over 80, the survival rate is very high. It's the assumption that everybody who gets Covid is at grave danger of death is beyond ridiculous.
2) You are basing your assumption that things would have been 'terrible' based on the modelling brought out at the beginning of the pandemic, which has been widely discredited, used vastly wrong assumptions on Infection fatality rate and the same models have been massively wrong again and again throughout. This, combined with the PCR test, whose own inventor said was not suitable for mass testing. The PCR test which varies in sensitivity from country to country. God knows how many misdiagnosis and false positives have occurred.
3) no you cannot catch or transmit cancer but you can cure it with early diagnosis, which we fundamentally haven't done because Covid is the only illness in town. Imagine the amount of lives that could have been saved on using say the track and trace budget alone?
4) lockdown would work effectively if everyone was hermetically sealed in their homes and never allowed out, clearly that's not possible. Funneling people to some of the few places that were open e.g. supermarkets is just completely negating any interventions.
5) you are making the assumption that the 140,000 people who have supposed all died from Covid are accurate figures. 2020 was the worst year for excess deaths since....oooh let me think...2008, less than 15 years ago. Several years before were worse.
6) lockdown has had a positive effect on bringing down cases in some countries but not in others. Surely if lockdown was a solution then the evidence would show it worked everywhere. Many places that didn't lockdown actually performed better than those that did!
7) Do I think that people dying aren't worth it? No of course I don't but old people die unfortunately, that's the nature of it. Many deaths that would have happened anyway have been attributed to Covid. Would my 96 year old nan have preferred to have seen her family in the last year of her life rather than hiding away from something that in all probability wouldn't kill her anyway? Absolutely.
😎 If you don't believe that the government uses some areas of the press for propoganda then there is no hope. What deadly pandemic requires a 300 million pound marketing budget? What deadly pandemic needs to constantly remind people to stay at home? Which deadly pandemic requires coercion to be vaccinated from? Some of the journalists questions have been pathetic. Nobody has questioned the tests, the figures, the modelling (bar a handful). Many newspapers have received huge swathes of advertising budget from the government...do you think they would go against the grain when money is involved?
9) What would or should we have done instead? Taken the pandemic plan that actually was created for a pandemic worse than this. Used sensible mitigation like staying at home when ill. Using the approach like Sweden which did not shut its schools and economies and now has very little issue with Covid. What we did was to copy everybody else who had copied China, with absolutely zero regard for the consequences.
10) You never answered my point about the fact that all this nonsense will have caused more deaths than it has saved, across a much younger average age group. So remind me, what was the purpose of lockdown again? Yes, you get some young people affected by Covid but the average age of deaths is 82, people who have already lived their lives. I've asked a number of people in that age bracket and they've all said the same thing....I'd much rather live a proper life that I have left than to be chained to my house. Funnily enough, this age group is never surveyed for its opinion, probably because it wouldn't fit the scare narrative.

What you have done, and what most people have done, is grossly misinterpreted the risk, listened to state sponsored scientists only, believed every word spouted by your oh so trustworthy government and swallowed the propoganda hook line and sinker. No questions, no kickback. When presented with arguments against, your comeback essentially boils down to 'but people died!'. I hate to break it to people but people die every day in their thousands, 600,000 per year. More people died in 2007 and a number of years previously. 2020 was not an exceptional year for deaths. In a real pandemic, people would be begging for the vaccine, teriffied to leave their homes. This has been a nasty virus, massively over exaggerated. God help us if we do have a real pandemic that kills 1 in 2 or 3....will people be willing to do the same as we have done again? We've set a ridiculous precedent.

 

Completely disagree. I have been balanced throughout, I know you are biased and dont display any kind of balanced view what so ever, but if you think I and others with similar thoughts are the reason the country has lost the plot over this then there is no point debating with you. What an embarrassing thing to say.

 

1) There is no assumption that everyone gets seriously ill and you know it. I have replied to you numerous times on here and always mentioned that. What you fail to see is that is lockdowns and actions taken that have stopped this rate from getting higher and higher. If we had continued as normal the NHS wouldn't have coped. Your whole point about cancer patients not being able to be seen would have been even worse if no action as in lockdowns were taken.

2) I'm not basing it on that. I'm basing it on what was actually going on around us. People were dying and people were extremely ill with the virus, I'm not basing that off any figures although the figures at the time were very bad. It was bad at the start of the pandemic, unless you have blinkers on there is no denying that. Don't disagree re PCR tests.

3) Track and trace a shambles yes, I'm not disagreeing that cancer patients or heart disease patients should have been pushed aside, of course they shouldn't but I think had we not gone into lockdown this would have been even worse. Covid isnt the only illness in town, it was treated as it was because it passes from one person to another, I really dont see what is wrong with that. 

4) Dont agree. It worked. Figures came down, it worked. People went to larger supermarkets, yes, with only a certain amount allowed in and all with masks. A complete lockdown would have worked better, but mental health would be too much and would have an adverse effect.

5) Never said that. Oh so just because its only the worst year in terms of deaths for 15 years, we should ignore it? It could have been worse without action. Not sure what point you are making? 

6) Do you think it would have worked in Britain? No lockdown? I can tell you now it would not, and the cases would have gone through the roof. What countries didn't have lockdowns? I'm just guessing but i'd imagine they aren't as densely populated as the UK and they have a population that will follow rules correctly such as social distancing.

7) Of course people die naturally, that isnt to say we shouldnt do all we can to help protect them. Again not sure what point your making. 

8 If you say so. I think people in our country do need a constant reminder as we have a large number who literally dont give a <ovf censored>. I think people were genuinely and rightly worried at the start of the pandemic, i dont think the constant reporting on it and advising people to stay home ect is propaganda.

9) Its very easy to comment like that in hindsight. I think the lockdown was the correct way to go. I dont think doing what Sweden did would work over here. 

10) I'm not sure, mental health is clearly a huge issue and I imagine it has had an adverse effect on many, but again that dosent mean lockdown was wrong and was the wrong way to go. At the height of a pandemic that could have been far far worse than it was it was the right thing to do. We didnt know how / if the virus would mutate. What would you be saying if it mutated into something worse and we just let people go about their lives as normal? In my opinion a few months in complete lockdown was ok if that means the pandemic dosent become worse and literally cripple the country. We have managed to get back to some normality now and i dont think without the lockdown this would be possible.

 

To your last point, you say its been massively over exaggerated, i think you have massively under played it. If a virus came that kills 1 in 3 then someone is a literal <ovf censored> idiot if they wouldnt be follow another lockdown. 

Just FYI I barely read any papers / news stories, I followed the figures and reports at 5pm and that was it. No propaganda as you call it has gotten to me, its my personal opinion and people are allowed to think otherwise to yourself without being a sheep or puppet. People have died, i really dont grasp your point?!?! Say another virus comes out next year, are we to say <ovf censored> it, it will only kill 200k who cares? It makes literally no sense at all. If something can kill our population why wouldnt we take measures to stop it?

 

Done debating now on this thread. No balance to any argument.

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18 hours ago, leedsvaliant said:

Professor Gordon Wishart, one of the UK’s leading cancer experts, reckons 10,000 excess cancer deaths is a very low estimate. “I think it will be closer to 25,000 deaths over the next five years,” he says. Professor Wishart points to The Lancet Oncology paper published last year. “Delays in in diagnosis in NHS England suggested a 10 per cent increase in excess deaths from lung, bowel and breast cancer over the next five years. However, we then had a second lockdown [when more patients will not have seen a GP] and there are still significant delays to accessing NHS screenings and other cancer services.

Let that sink in....25,000 unnecessary deaths and many of people with their whole lives ahead of them, not just those 80+. And that's just cancer! That total will be added to by all the other big killers e.g. heart disease that hasn't been diagnosed in the name of 'safety'.

Are people still not seeing this yet? The impact of the restrictions and psychological propoganda will far, far outweigh any deaths from a virus with a 99.7% survival rate.

Anyone who supported lockdowns and all the other nonsense should hang their heads in shame. Disgraceful.

So this modelling is acceptable? Is that because it agrees with your view? 

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36 minutes ago, valiant_593 said:

 

I think most people are much more scared of cancer, I know I personally am, I think it’s more that covid was something new and at that time was killing people in large numbers or at least contributing to the deaths. 
 

What is the death rate overall before the vaccine. It’s not fair again to focus on just over 65s are we to just forget about them?

Yeah if youre over 65 you're as good as dead anyway.. funnily enough the same people use the argument that suicides went up. If youre suicidal aren't you gonna commit suicide regardless of if covid was a thing? Or doesn't it work both ways? 

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I posted the ONS stats for this a few pages back. The survival rate during 2020 (before the vaccine) for under-65 year olds is 99.9841%
The thing I can't understand is why is everyone literally petrified of a virus that has a 0.0159% chance of killing them, yet for decades, cancer has been responsible for killing 1 in 4 people and no one batted an eyelid?
And can someone tell me why people are more scared of something that spreads over something that doesn't, even if the thing that doesn't spread has more chance of killing you? 
Hysteria? Virtue signalling? Misunderstanding of risk? Probably a bit of all of the above but sensible, rational statistics just don't wash with the Covid cult.

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3 hours ago, valiant_593 said:

 

Youve posted numerous times that those who have chosen not to have the vaccine shouldn’t be treated differently. But now those who supported lockdowns should hang there head in shame…. Hypocrisy at its very best.  

 

@leedsvaliant 

@valiant_593 makes a very good point here about hypocrisy. It's about respect.

Everyone clearly has their own views on covid. Some people are still very anxious and feel more comfortable in masks and keeping a distance and that's not because they have been brainwashed, they are genuinely scared from what they have seen. Some other people are anxious about taking a vaccine, they may know people who have had bad reactions or just afraid of the unknown reaction in the future. Some just want to get on and go back to normal life. Whatever the different views of individuals on covid it's about respecting them. 

I think this government has handled the pandemic appallingly and havent been convinced with some measures that were put in place, however I am double jabbed and now happily going about business in a normal fashion. Ive been on holiday abroad no problems, I can go to the pub, football matches etc etc. We are out of lockdown so I really don't know why you keep going on about it.

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Completely disagree. I have been balanced throughout, I know you are biased and dont display any kind of balanced view what so ever, but if you think I and others with similar thoughts are the reason the country has lost the plot over this then there is no point debating with you. What an embarrassing thing to say.
 
1) There is no assumption that everyone gets seriously ill and you know it. I have replied to you numerous times on here and always mentioned that. What you fail to see is that is lockdowns and actions taken that have stopped this rate from getting higher and higher. If we had continued as normal the NHS wouldn't have coped. Your whole point about cancer patients not being able to be seen would have been even worse if no action as in lockdowns were taken.
2) I'm not basing it on that. I'm basing it on what was actually going on around us. People were dying and people were extremely ill with the virus, I'm not basing that off any figures although the figures at the time were very bad. It was bad at the start of the pandemic, unless you have blinkers on there is no denying that. Don't disagree re PCR tests.
3) Track and trace a shambles yes, I'm not disagreeing that cancer patients or heart disease patients should have been pushed aside, of course they shouldn't but I think had we not gone into lockdown this would have been even worse. Covid isnt the only illness in town, it was treated as it was because it passes from one person to another, I really dont see what is wrong with that. 
4) Dont agree. It worked. Figures came down, it worked. People went to larger supermarkets, yes, with only a certain amount allowed in and all with masks. A complete lockdown would have worked better, but mental health would be too much and would have an adverse effect.
5) Never said that. Oh so just because its only the worst year in terms of deaths for 15 years, we should ignore it? It could have been worse without action. Not sure what point you are making? 
6) Do you think it would have worked in Britain? No lockdown? I can tell you now it would not, and the cases would have gone through the roof. What countries didn't have lockdowns? I'm just guessing but i'd imagine they aren't as densely populated as the UK and they have a population that will follow rules correctly such as social distancing.
7) Of course people die naturally, that isnt to say we shouldnt do all we can to help protect them. Again not sure what point your making. 
8 If you say so. I think people in our country do need a constant reminder as we have a large number who literally dont give a . I think people were genuinely and rightly worried at the start of the pandemic, i dont think the constant reporting on it and advising people to stay home ect is propaganda.
9) Its very easy to comment like that in hindsight. I think the lockdown was the correct way to go. I dont think doing what Sweden did would work over here. 
10) I'm not sure, mental health is clearly a huge issue and I imagine it has had an adverse effect on many, but again that dosent mean lockdown was wrong and was the wrong way to go. At the height of a pandemic that could have been far far worse than it was it was the right thing to do. We didnt know how / if the virus would mutate. What would you be saying if it mutated into something worse and we just let people go about their lives as normal? In my opinion a few months in complete lockdown was ok if that means the pandemic dosent become worse and literally cripple the country. We have managed to get back to some normality now and i dont think without the lockdown this would be possible.
 
To your last point, you say its been massively over exaggerated, i think you have massively under played it. If a virus came that kills 1 in 3 then someone is a literal idiot if they wouldnt be follow another lockdown. 
Just FYI I barely read any papers / news stories, I followed the figures and reports at 5pm and that was it. No propaganda as you call it has gotten to me, its my personal opinion and people are allowed to think otherwise to yourself without being a sheep or puppet. People have died, i really dont grasp your point?!?! Say another virus comes out next year, are we to say it, it will only kill 200k who cares? It makes literally no sense at all. If something can kill our population why wouldnt we take measures to stop it?
 
Done debating now on this thread. No balance to any argument.
Basically your argument boils down to the fact that you believe this to be an unprecedented event that without action would have caused millions of deaths in the UK. I've already explained why I believe that not to be the case. I guess neither of us will ever know but I believe the original modelling was wildly pessimistic and the ridiculous level of testing has vastly inflated the scale of the issue.

If you get chance, Google a story about a supposed whooping cough outbreak in a hospital in America. It's a smaller scale version of what I believe has happened here. The doctors and scientists had convinced themselves that they were dealing with an unprecedented outbreak, but eventually they realised that this wasn't the case.

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Yeah if youre over 65 you're as good as dead anyway.. funnily enough the same people use the argument that suicides went up. If youre suicidal aren't you gonna commit suicide regardless of if covid was a thing? Or doesn't it work both ways? 
Well no, because clearly locking people away in their homes, preventing them from seeing loved ones, ruining their livelihoods is going to exasperate their mental health. Not everybody who has mental health issues commits suicide but it can drive people to it.

By the way, my parents are both nearly 70, both well educated and have not bought into any of this theatre in the name of safety.

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@valiant_593 is the reason the country has lost the plot? .... Really? 
I actually think that@valiant_593 is one of the less hysterical posters. I fundamentally disagree with his side on this but he's pretty fair. I wasn't really referring to him personally but in general the opinion that this was unprecedented and required drastic action, that's the opinion that I think has led the country down a rabbit hole that it is struggling to get out of.
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1 hour ago, valiant_593 said:

 

I think most people are much more scared of cancer, I know I personally am, I think it’s more that covid was something new and at that time was killing people in large numbers or at least contributing to the deaths. 
 

What is the death rate overall before the vaccine. It’s not fair again to focus on just over 65s are we to just forget about them?

I'll be honest, it worried me at first, the stories coming out of China/Italy initially were scary, but then by around May 2020, nothing seemed to make any sense and I just felt that "something isn't right here". Then I started noticing a myriad of events that again just didn't make sense (and still don't!).

You are absolutely right, we shouldn't ignore the over 65's and I mentioned this in my post. Every life is precious. Of course it is. Someone under 65 is worth just as much as someone 90 years old but the sad fact of life is that people die. People's health deteriorates as they get older, so they are more at risk, and more vulnerable to all sorts of illnesses. 30,000 pensioners freeze to death every year and it's horrible. But this is sadly the reality we live in. COVID is no different to the flu/common cold/freezing temperatures in that it will affect the vulnerable more than others.

That being said, the overall survival rate from 2020 was still 99.8731% which just begs the question - why have we ended up in the crazy world we live in today where people are losing their freedom over this?

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@leedsvaliant 
@valiant_593 makes a very good point here about hypocrisy. It's about respect.
Everyone clearly has their own views on covid. Some people are still very anxious and feel more comfortable in masks and keeping a distance and that's not because they have been brainwashed, they are genuinely scared from what they have seen. Some other people are anxious about taking a vaccine, they may know people who have had bad reactions or just afraid of the unknown reaction in the future. Some just want to get on and go back to normal life. Whatever the different views of individuals on covid it's about respecting them. 
I think this government has handled the pandemic appallingly and havent been convinced with some measures that were put in place, however I am double jabbed and now happily going about business in a normal fashion. Ive been on holiday abroad no problems, I can go to the pub, football matches etc etc. We are out of lockdown so I really don't know why you keep going on about it.


I think you make some fair points and I do sometimes get carried away.

I think it's because the suppine nature of people accepting without question has angered me. I am not disrespectful to people that continue to be frightened and I respect their right to do so. My anger is actually with the people that made them like that, that made them believe that they are in mortal danger every time they leave their house. That's the crime here. I'm also frustrated that there is a continuation of the testing, so that there is the threat of isolation at any time and also the fact that things like theatres and the London marathon require tests to participate and if you happen to test positive it's tough. The rules around travel are also daft. Either scrap it all or do we continue in this halfway house for ever?

I know of a lady of around 50 who is so terrified to do anything at all. She hasn't been to see family, she won't take her daughter anywhere, she hasn't been on holiday, she's barely left the house. Whilst for many of us, some normality has meant we can do things, some people have been mortally terrified and that's what makes me angry.

I keep going on about it in the hope that we never have to go back into lockdowns and the madness of the world this last 18 months never happens again. If it's a virus that kills 1 in 4 or 5 then I wholeheartedly agree with doing whatever is necessary, but the furore over a virus that kills way, way less than 1% of the predominantly 80+ population that it infects, I'm sorry but you'll never convince me that this was necessary or justified.
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17 hours ago, leedsvaliant said:


 

 


I think you make some fair points and I do sometimes get carried away.

I think it's because the suppine nature of people accepting without question has angered me. I am not disrespectful to people that continue to be frightened and I respect their right to do so. My anger is actually with the people that made them like that, that made them believe that they are in mortal danger every time they leave their house. That's the crime here. I'm also frustrated that there is a continuation of the testing, so that there is the threat of isolation at any time and also the fact that things like theatres and the London marathon require tests to participate and if you happen to test positive it's tough. The rules around travel are also daft. Either scrap it all or do we continue in this halfway house for ever?

I know of a lady of around 50 who is so terrified to do anything at all. She hasn't been to see family, she won't take her daughter anywhere, she hasn't been on holiday, she's barely left the house. Whilst for many of us, some normality has meant we can do things, some people have been mortally terrified and that's what makes me angry.

I keep going on about it in the hope that we never have to go back into lockdowns and the madness of the world this last 18 months never happens again. If it's a virus that kills 1 in 4 or 5 then I wholeheartedly agree with doing whatever is necessary, but the furore over a virus that kills way, way less than 1% of the predominantly 80+ population that it infects, I'm sorry but you'll never convince me that this was necessary or justified.

 

How do you know that everyone who is scared are scared because they have been made to feel like that because of propaganda? Some people may have witnessed first hand people who have suffered with it. For example I know someone who had it last year and are still in a terrible way and can barely breathe. Seeing that hasn't made me want to hibernate but I can see how some people could be genuinely scared. 

I do agree that some of the measures now particularly on travel make no sense and are contradictory. 

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How do you know that everyone who is scared are scared because they have been made to feel like that because of propaganda? Some people may have witnessed first hand people who have suffered with it. For example I know someone who had it last year and are still in a terrible way and can barely breathe. Seeing that hasn't made me want to hibernate but I can see how some people could be genuinely scared. 
I do agree that some of the measures now particularly on travel make no sense and are contradictory. 
I think that's a fair point but how do you think you would have reacted to somebody who had an illness without the spectre of Covid? Would this person have been ill anyway? I just feel like everything has been attributed to Covid because we're testing for it unlike any illness we have every done before. A professor said today on sky news that we can't be sure that a lot of people who have died were because of Covid. If you test for something at the sensitivity that we have and on the scale that we have, then you are likely to find it. Of course, this virus has made some people extremely ill but in Spain for instance over 92% of deaths had at least 1 major comorbidity.

The whopping cough outbreak story from a hospital in the states highlights this scenario. Some people had symptoms of whooping cough and so they used a PCR test to identify cases. Because the PCR test was set at too high a cycle it identified whopping cough amongst a vast majority of patients and staff and panic ensued. The hospital was locked down because they reared a major whooping cough outbreak. When they ran blood tests it turned out that nobody had whooping cough.

The disappearance of flu to me suggests that a vast number of Covid deaths were actually flu rebadged due to a positive test. Additional deaths caused by people not going to get treated for other illnesses through fear, plus the clearing out of hospitals back into care homes due to flu like symptoms.

Was the NHS ever really truly overwhelmed? Many people within the NHS told me that it was busy over winter but not unprecedented and the difficulties arose from a massive cut to the number of beds and staff isolating. I have about 5 funeral directors as clients and they said similar, busy but not unprecedented. In 2017 in Spain, some hospitals were running at 200% capacity and people were in corridors, similar events happen on a yearly basis in the UK. Many people say it would have been worse if we hadn't done anything but the only indicators we have for that is an unreliable and over sensitive test and wildly inaccurate models.

From a personal perspective I wouldn't have known that a pandemic was taking place apart from the fact that everywhere was closed. I know less than 12 people who have supposedly had Covid but is it unusual to know 12 people who have had cold/flu symptoms over an 18 month period? Not really. I know of one person who has been in hospital seriously ill, but again is that vastly unusual to know of one person in my entire network who has been seriously ill in the last 2 years? Not really. I live on a road of predominantly 70+ age people. Not one has had Covid or been ill. In a pandemic I would anticipate at least one.

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Hospital admissions for COVID-19 have fallen to the lowest level for two months as bleak warnings from government scientists once again failed to materialise.
Latest data shows Britain is ‘over the worst’ of the pandemic after the number of virus patients admitted to hospital fell by 15% in a week.
So far this week, just 557 patients a day have been admitted to English hospitals, despite the Sage committee’s dire warnings of a devastating autumn surge.
Only last week, Sage published modelling warning there could be 7,000 hospitalisations a day within weeks.
But current admissions are half the level of even its ‘best-case scenario.

Well there's a surprise...modelling drastically wrong again. Why is nobody holding these people to account or even listening to them anymore? Crazy.

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