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"Still in its trial phase" 
You do realise that every vaccine you have ever had is in the same phase as the covid vaccines which is phase 3 clinical trial phase? 
You're spreading myth as usual. 
Incorrect. The current vaccines are still an emergency approval, yet to be fully tested and approved. I believe that they are safe, but you can understand people who don't.
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17 hours ago, Bycarsbill said:

I'm certainly not embarrassed by my definition of "crazy" in the context of what we are discussing here.  I am however, at a loss to see exactly what you're advocating. And, as yet, you haven't answered my question;  are you suggesting that Australia (and any other country for that matter), does nothing and just lets the virus run rampant throughout its population?

To correct you yet again, on 21st August (last published figures in Australia) there were 891 new cases (not one), making a rolling seven day average of 637 new cases per day.  Nothing compared with here, but nevertheless the start of some exponential growth that, if allowed to go un-checked will result in a substantial increase in the number of cases.  In total Australia has registered 45,570 infections and there have been 984 deaths in that time--this may only be 2.2% in statistical terms, but each one of those deaths is a real family tragedy!

The biggest problem that both Australia & New Zealand have is that they thought their remote (and mainly sealed) borders would protect them.  In fairness that course of action did pretty well work until the arrival of the Delta variant.  Sadly, neither country pursued the vaccination route, which they are both now trying to reverse very quickly. 

Although reasonably steady at the moment, the 30,000 plus daily  infected cases in this country is at its highest since March.  Thankfully because of the vaccine effect, the link between infections & hospitalisations/deaths has been partially broken.  However the number of hospital admissions is on a slight rise at the moment, +6.6% on the previous week up to the 17th August when the data was last updated.  There are now almost 6.5K people in hospital with 928 of those (almost 15%) on ventilators.  It's a nasty, pernicious and virulent virus that isn't done yet!

Your definition of "not crazy" is that locking down entire cities for 1 case, and shooting innocent dogs are perfectly acceptable behaviour. I think that speaks volumes.

You are incorrect, again, as the article I posted clearly states that a city of 460,000 was shut down because of ONE case. I wasn't talking about the entire country which is what you brought up. To shut down entire cities because of ONE case is utterly irrational and extremely cruel to the physical and mental heath of it's residents.

I will agree with you on one thing, any death is a tragedy to the family, but I hate to break this news to you - people don't live forever. People die every day.

But people also want to live their lives too, and not be subjected to inhumane lockdowns and forced medical trials. Especially not for a virus with a 99%+ survival rate.

You mention hospital admissions, but please have a look at what the government constitutes a "patient admitted to hospital" case - these numbers are not indicative of reality. They are grossly inflated.

https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/healthcare

It's all here, hidden in plain sight.

"England data include people admitted to hospital who tested positive for COVID-19 in the 14 days prior to admission, and those who tested positive in hospital after admission"

So I could walk into a hospital with a migraine, COVID free, then catch COVID in hospital and I would be recorded as a "patient admitted to hospital with COVID".

Similarly, I could test positive for COVID at home, recover (as do 99%+), then walk into hospital with a migraine within 14 days of the positive test, and again, I would be recorded as a "patient admitted to hospital with COVID".

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Your definition of "not crazy" is that locking down entire cities for 1 case, and shooting innocent dogs are perfectly acceptable behaviour. I think that speaks volumes.
You are incorrect, again, as the article I posted clearly states that a city of 460,000 was shut down because of ONE case. I wasn't talking about the entire country which is what you brought up. To shut down entire cities because of ONE case is utterly irrational and extremely cruel to the physical and mental heath of it's residents.
I will agree with you on one thing, any death is a tragedy to the family, but I hate to break this news to you - people don't live forever. People die every day.
But people also want to live their lives too, and not be subjected to inhumane lockdowns and forced medical trials. Especially not for a virus with a 99%+ survival rate.
You mention hospital admissions, but please have a look at what the government constitutes a "patient admitted to hospital" case - these numbers are not indicative of reality. They are grossly inflated.
https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/healthcare
It's all here, hidden in plain sight.
"England data include people admitted to hospital who tested positive for COVID-19 in the 14 days prior to admission, and those who tested positive in hospital after admission"
So I could walk into a hospital with a migraine, COVID free, then catch COVID in hospital and I would be recorded as a "patient admitted to hospital with COVID".
Similarly, I could test positive for COVID at home, recover (as do 99%+), then walk into hospital with a migraine within 14 days of the positive test, and again, I would be recorded as a "patient admitted to hospital with COVID".
Finally, someone who isn't ruled by emotion and hasn't been hoodwinked by phony data. I can't wait until they actually analyse who was genuinely ill and who actually died from Covid as the sole reason. I think some people will be in for a shock. Remember 2020 is not a remarkable year in terms of deaths based on population...just let that sink in.

My sceptical view on this started when the news was showing pictures of the hospitals in northern Italy about 20 months ago. I found out that it's like that every year in that area. It was the same with our hospitals over winter, made to look worse by a massive shortage of beds and staff.

We've been sold a pup but not many in the public eye dare say anything because they would be deemed cruel and callous by the permanently offended.

People die in their thousands every day, 10s of thousands a week, 100s of thousands a year. We can't prevent the death of all elderly and ill people. The arrogance of trying to control a virus is beyond contempt.
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Just because we can’t prevent death Doesn’t mean that no action should have been taken with a new deadly virus. One that at the beginning was killing people, yes the majority of those being elderly or with a medical condition but that Dosent mean we should just ignore it and let it get worse and worse. 
 

The point on Northern Italy I’m not sure on. A work colleagues grandparents live in Northern Italy and they had never seen scenes like it. 
 

There is no arrogance in trying to control a virus. I’ve got absolutely no idea what your point is here? That’s like saying the arrogance of the human race for trying to find a cure to cancer. It’s something that whether you think the stats are overplayed or not, has killed people and has wrecked thousands of lives. 
 

If we had done what suggest and essentially let nature take its course I imagine there would be a hell of a lot more deaths than there currently are. Not just from covid but literally every other illness as the hospitals wouldn’t be able to cope. 
 

I do understand people die of different things every day. But how many of those were contagious? This could, if not acted upon have been a disaster. 

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2 hours ago, valeparklife said:

Your definition of "not crazy" is that locking down entire cities for 1 case, and shooting innocent dogs are perfectly acceptable behaviour. I think that speaks volumes.

You are incorrect, again, as the article I posted clearly states that a city of 460,000 was shut down because of ONE case. I wasn't talking about the entire country which is what you brought up. To shut down entire cities because of ONE case is utterly irrational and extremely cruel to the physical and mental heath of it's residents.

I will agree with you on one thing, any death is a tragedy to the family, but I hate to break this news to you - people don't live forever. People die every day.

But people also want to live their lives too, and not be subjected to inhumane lockdowns and forced medical trials. Especially not for a virus with a 99%+ survival rate.

You mention hospital admissions, but please have a look at what the government constitutes a "patient admitted to hospital" case - these numbers are not indicative of reality. They are grossly inflated.

https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/healthcare

It's all here, hidden in plain sight.

"England data include people admitted to hospital who tested positive for COVID-19 in the 14 days prior to admission, and those who tested positive in hospital after admission"

So I could walk into a hospital with a migraine, COVID free, then catch COVID in hospital and I would be recorded as a "patient admitted to hospital with COVID".

Similarly, I could test positive for COVID at home, recover (as do 99%+), then walk into hospital with a migraine within 14 days of the positive test, and again, I would be recorded as a "patient admitted to hospital with COVID".

Not disagreeing with you last few paragraphs, it’s been that since the start of the pandemic. People who died of a heart attack may have covid on their death certificate. It could have contributed though? 
 

The thing with the dogs is completely disgusting and they should be ashamed of themselves. 
 

locking down a whole city for one case is way over the top. I get it. As essentially the virus should be ridden of in that city, but I agree over the top. I certainly don’t think it’s inhumane though. 
 

It’s alright saying now it’s a 99% survival rate but the lockdowns did stop the spread of the virus and help the NHS deal with patients. If not for the lockdowns the cases and deaths would have been far higher, not just from covid. The lockdowns weren’t great, I had my wedding moved 4 times and consequently have lost 3/4 grand because of this. But they had to happen. 
 

One thing I will say is that if any lockdown happened again for Covid i wouldn’t agree with it. The vaccine is out there so that really should be the end of it. It’s not been great but at least we can move on. Inhumane, there’s a lot of things that are that. I wouldn’t say being made to spend time with family at home is one of them. 

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Just because we can’t prevent death Doesn’t mean that no action should have been taken with a new deadly virus. One that at the beginning was killing people, yes the majority of those being elderly or with a medical condition but that Dosent mean we should just ignore it and let it get worse and worse. 
 
The point on Northern Italy I’m not sure on. A work colleagues grandparents live in Northern Italy and they had never seen scenes like it. 
 
There is no arrogance in trying to control a virus. I’ve got absolutely no idea what your point is here? That’s like saying the arrogance of the human race for trying to find a cure to cancer. It’s something that whether you think the stats are overplayed or not, has killed people and has wrecked thousands of lives. 
 
If we had done what suggest and essentially let nature take its course I imagine there would be a hell of a lot more deaths than there currently are. Not just from covid but literally every other illness as the hospitals wouldn’t be able to cope. 
 
I do understand people die of different things every day. But how many of those were contagious? This could, if not acted upon have been a disaster. 
We shouldn't have done nothing but we also should have learnt who was affected the most and acted accordingly. Some countries and areas have shown that not going in so severely and adopting moderate measures based on existing plans was the best idea long term, but those that suggested it were ridiculed and rubbished.

We literally tore up our pandemic preparation plan, which was targeted at something more deadly, and undertook an unprecedented lockdown with very little thought for the long term consequences. We also massively overestimated the infection to fatality rate, placing it at 1% when in reality it was nowhere near that. Even now, models are using the same assumptions to come to the wrong conclusions.

The only reason people believed that this would swamp the NHS if we didn't do lockdown was based on those highly discredited models.

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Not disagreeing with you last few paragraphs, it’s been that since the start of the pandemic. People who died of a heart attack may have covid on their death certificate. It could have contributed though? 
 
The thing with the dogs is completely disgusting and they should be ashamed of themselves. 
 
locking down a whole city for one case is way over the top. I get it. As essentially the virus should be ridden of in that city, but I agree over the top. I certainly don’t think it’s inhumane though. 
 
It’s alright saying now it’s a 99% survival rate but the lockdowns did stop the spread of the virus and help the NHS deal with patients. If not for the lockdowns the cases and deaths would have been far higher, not just from covid. The lockdowns weren’t great, I had my wedding moved 4 times and consequently have lost 3/4 grand because of this. But they had to happen. 
 
One thing I will say is that if any lockdown happened again for Covid i wouldn’t agree with it. The vaccine is out there so that really should be the end of it. It’s not been great but at least we can move on. Inhumane, there’s a lot of things that are that. I wouldn’t say being made to spend time with family at home is one of them. 
I agree with some of what you say but I don't believe the lockdowns 'had' to happen. Moderate measures, ensuring that cancer diagnosis continued, that the economy continued, that schools stayed open for all would have caused way less short and long term issues. We took a sledgehammer to crack a nut.

I'd also say that not everybody had a comfortable time during lockdown baking bread and doing Zoom quizzes with their loving families. Many people don't have any outdoor space, lost their jobs, suffered domestic abuse, missed out on vital education and life opportunities, suffered mentally, feared going to the hospital to sort out life threatening illnesses. This painting of lockdown as something that 'wasn't too bad' is only apt for those in comfortable circumstances.

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Maybe so, but lockdown wasn’t inhumane that was the point I was making. Everyone knows it’s been difficult and more so for some than others. Due to wedding cancellations and changes in work it was extremely stressful for myself and my wife’s workload increased tenfold with schools being closed. Dosent make it inhumane though. I think that’s the complete wrong word to use.

I disagree with what your saying about the NHS that would have been swamped. For me there’s no doubt about that. I know a load of people who work (well worked) for the NHS and they would completely agree. Most of whom have now moved on from the NHS due to this. If they were swamped before the lockdowns and increasing numbers with no vaccine surely that would only increase? 

Agree with your point on cancer treatments ect. For me that’s one of, if not the biggest failing out of all of this. For me tackling covid had to be done, but that didn’t mean other more harmful illnesses should have been pushed back. Makes no sense to me. Schools I’m not so sure, although the kids don’t really get ill they are carriers and as far as results go, home schooling seems to have been a reasonable success. 

I suppose it’s easy to say what should have happened in hindsight, I was massively critical of borris throughout especially at the start, (leaving borders open) I really dislike the man and party but I think whatever way they took, it could now be considered too harsh or not harsh enough. 

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1 hour ago, leedsvaliant said:

I agree with some of what you say but I don't believe the lockdowns 'had' to happen. Moderate measures, ensuring that cancer diagnosis continued, that the economy continued, that schools stayed open for all would have caused way less short and long term issues. We took a sledgehammer to crack a nut.

I'd also say that not everybody had a comfortable time during lockdown baking bread and doing Zoom quizzes with their loving families. Many people don't have any outdoor space, lost their jobs, suffered domestic abuse, missed out on vital education and life opportunities, suffered mentally, feared going to the hospital to sort out life threatening illnesses. This painting of lockdown as something that 'wasn't too bad' is only apt for those in comfortable circumstances.

Don't knock the bread making.....

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Lockdowns do have an impact, both positive and negative. 

The primary benefit of a lockdown, in my opinion, is to stop the virus being brought in from or taken out to other countries. This allows you to assess and deal with, in some way, the spread within the population. It also allows mapping and tracking without new sources.

The UK didn't do that.

One of the downsides to lockdown is it's impractical to do long term.

Thailand shut down all the airports, no one in or out and the numbers were very low. Then they allowed repatriation flights for Thai nationals and the numbers went up. They restricted movement between provinces and the numbers levelled. They failed however to control their borders and cheap labour came in from Myanmar, the numbers jumped again, especially when the eventually started to test prisoners.

The big downside was the hit to the economy. 33% of Thailand's revenue comes from tourism. Before covid some 3,000,000 people entered the kingdom every day, this dropped to about 300.

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Maybe so, but lockdown wasn’t inhumane that was the point I was making. Everyone knows it’s been difficult and more so for some than others. Due to wedding cancellations and changes in work it was extremely stressful for myself and my wife’s workload increased tenfold with schools being closed. Dosent make it inhumane though. I think that’s the complete wrong word to use.
I disagree with what your saying about the NHS that would have been swamped. For me there’s no doubt about that. I know a load of people who work (well worked) for the NHS and they would completely agree. Most of whom have now moved on from the NHS due to this. If they were swamped before the lockdowns and increasing numbers with no vaccine surely that would only increase? 
Agree with your point on cancer treatments ect. For me that’s one of, if not the biggest failing out of all of this. For me tackling covid had to be done, but that didn’t mean other more harmful illnesses should have been pushed back. Makes no sense to me. Schools I’m not so sure, although the kids don’t really get ill they are carriers and as far as results go, home schooling seems to have been a reasonable success. 
I suppose it’s easy to say what should have happened in hindsight, I was massively critical of borris throughout especially at the start, (leaving borders open) I really dislike the man and party but I think whatever way they took, it could now be considered too harsh or not harsh enough. 


Once again you put your points across in a balanced and fair way, unlike some of the hystericals on here.

I wouldn't say that every aspect of lockdown has been inhumane but I would argue that preventing people from seeing their loved ones before they die is pretty inhumane and leaving confused old people to rot in care homes wondering why no one is coming to visit them is pretty inhumane. I'd also say putting Covid-19 above other illnesses has been a shame on the world's governments that will affect things for many years.

In terms of schools I think there was no reason to close them. Children are not big vectors of disease and you can count the number of kids on one hand who have actually (supposedly) died with Covid. It's not just from an educational point of view but also a social and life skills point of view. They caved into union pressure on that one and it will prove to be their biggest mistake. Academically there will be children that have done alright out of it but there are many children who did no learning whilst they were out of school, thus widening the gap.

Again, agree with a lot of what you say. I just wish people could look at both sides of the argument like you.

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Interestingly the Ferguson model, widely credited as the spark for lockdown throughout the world, predicted that Sweden would have 90,000 deaths by July 2020, the actual figure was just over 5,000. It goes to show that you can't really take modelling seriously as a true reflection of what might happen. We made this mistake time after time in the UK, remember 4000 deaths a day, 100,000 cases a day?

When the predictions are so far out, eventually you have to conclude that maybe the problem might have been exaggerated and we were acting on a highly unlikely scenario.

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20 hours ago, valeparklife said:

Your definition of "not crazy" is that locking down entire cities for 1 case, and shooting innocent dogs are perfectly acceptable behaviour. I think that speaks volumes.

You are incorrect, again, as the article I posted clearly states that a city of 460,000 was shut down because of ONE case. I wasn't talking about the entire country which is what you brought up. To shut down entire cities because of ONE case is utterly irrational and extremely cruel to the physical and mental heath of it's residents.

I will agree with you on one thing, any death is a tragedy to the family, but I hate to break this news to you - people don't live forever. People die every day.

But people also want to live their lives too, and not be subjected to inhumane lockdowns and forced medical trials. Especially not for a virus with a 99%+ survival rate.

You mention hospital admissions, but please have a look at what the government constitutes a "patient admitted to hospital" case - these numbers are not indicative of reality. They are grossly inflated.

https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/healthcare

It's all here, hidden in plain sight.

"England data include people admitted to hospital who tested positive for COVID-19 in the 14 days prior to admission, and those who tested positive in hospital after admission"

So I could walk into a hospital with a migraine, COVID free, then catch COVID in hospital and I would be recorded as a "patient admitted to hospital with COVID".

Similarly, I could test positive for COVID at home, recover (as do 99%+), then walk into hospital with a migraine within 14 days of the positive test, and again, I would be recorded as a "patient admitted to hospital with COVID".

825 new cases alone last Saturday--on the rise--get your facts straight!

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21 hours ago, leedsvaliant said:
23 hours ago, WV said:
"Still in its trial phase" 
You do realise that every vaccine you have ever had is in the same phase as the covid vaccines which is phase 3 clinical trial phase? 
You're spreading myth as usual. 

Incorrect. The current vaccines are still an emergency approval, yet to be fully tested and approved. I believe that they are safe, but you can understand people who don't.

Actually correct: 

WWW.HOPKINSMEDICINE.ORG

MYTH: Researchers rushed the development of the COVID-19 vaccine, so its effectiveness and safety cannot be trusted.

FACT: Studies found that the two initial vaccines are both about 95% effective — and reported no serious or life-threatening side effects. There are many reasons why the COVID-19 vaccines could be developed so quickly. Here are just a few:

  • The COVID-19 vaccines from Pfizer/BioNTech and Moderna were created with a method that has been in development for years, so the companies could start the vaccine development process early in the pandemic.
  • China isolated and shared genetic information about COVID-19 promptly, so scientists could start working on vaccines.
  • The vaccine developers didn’t skip any testing steps, but conducted some of the steps on an overlapping schedule to gather data faster.
  • Vaccine projects had plenty of resources, as governments invested in research and/or paid for vaccines in advance.
  • Some types of COVID-19 vaccines were created using messenger RNA (mRNA), which allows a faster approach than the traditional way that vaccines are made.
  • Social media helped companies find and engage study volunteers, and many were willing to help with COVID-19 vaccine research.
  • Because COVID-19 is so contagious and widespread, it did not take long to see if the vaccine worked for the study volunteers who were vaccinated.
  • Companies began making vaccines early in the process — even before FDA authorization — so some supplies were ready when authorization occurred.
Edited by WV

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Actually correct: 
coronavirus-vaccine-myths-teaser-image.ashx WWW.HOPKINSMEDICINE.ORG

MYTH: Researchers rushed the development of the COVID-19 vaccine, so its effectiveness and safety cannot be trusted.

FACT: Studies found that the two initial vaccines are both about 95% effective — and reported no serious or life-threatening side effects. There are many reasons why the COVID-19 vaccines could be developed so quickly. Here are just a few:

  • The COVID-19 vaccines from Pfizer/BioNTech and Moderna were created with a method that has been in development for years, so the companies could start the vaccine development process early in the pandemic.
  • China isolated and shared genetic information about COVID-19 promptly, so scientists could start working on vaccines.
  • The vaccine developers didn’t skip any testing steps, but conducted some of the steps on an overlapping schedule to gather data faster.
  • Vaccine projects had plenty of resources, as governments invested in research and/or paid for vaccines in advance.
  • Some types of COVID-19 vaccines were created using messenger RNA (mRNA), which allows a faster approach than the traditional way that vaccines are made.
  • Social media helped companies find and engage study volunteers, and many were willing to help with COVID-19 vaccine research.
  • Because COVID-19 is so contagious and widespread, it did not take long to see if the vaccine worked for the study volunteers who were vaccinated.
  • Companies began making vaccines early in the process — even before FDA authorization — so some supplies were ready when authorization occurred.
That doesn't prove anything. It just says they have been well tested, which I believe them to be. You're targeting the wrong person here.
Whether you like it or not, they are not subject to the completion of checks until 2023.

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Hi all,

I am moving this thread to the Politics section.

Reviewing recent posts I think this has increasingly (but not exclusively) turned into a "political" thread. 

I now think it should join other political threads in the Politics section.

The Politics forum section is optional (users can opt to not see it) and for that reason I want to move it to there so any users fed up of what has been a very long-running and controversial (albeit a very important) subject can ignore it and just focus on the football. On the flip side, those engaged in the debate and who still want to contribute are free to do so, just in a different part of the forum.

There will be a redirect in place from the Off-Topic section for a few days so anyone missing this post is aware where the post now sits.

p.s. If you no longer want to see political threads please message me and I will alter your settings.

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On 25/08/2021 at 13:42, leedsvaliant said:

Finally, someone who isn't ruled by emotion and hasn't been hoodwinked by phony data. I can't wait until they actually analyse who was genuinely ill and who actually died from Covid as the sole reason. I think some people will be in for a shock. Remember 2020 is not a remarkable year in terms of deaths based on population...just let that sink in.

My sceptical view on this started when the news was showing pictures of the hospitals in northern Italy about 20 months ago. I found out that it's like that every year in that area. It was the same with our hospitals over winter, made to look worse by a massive shortage of beds and staff.

We've been sold a pup but not many in the public eye dare say anything because they would be deemed cruel and callous by the permanently offended.

People die in their thousands every day, 10s of thousands a week, 100s of thousands a year. We can't prevent the death of all elderly and ill people. The arrogance of trying to control a virus is beyond contempt.

Presumably you're an anti-vaxxer too?

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