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I’m not on about the vaccine if u don’t want it that’s your call 
I’m on about 12 months of in and out of lockdowns that makes the people are against it for me personally and believe me mate I’m never in the house work golf few pints etc look a bit selfish cause they got stay in to protect other people 
 
I agree with you but the goalposts have changed throughout and the more it has gone on, it's less about saving lives and more about costing future lives and generations. It should have only every been used as a short term solution.

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4 hours ago, leedsvaliant said:

If it were the case that lockdown worked then surely you'd expect all lockdown countries to have performed relatively well in terms of deaths and all countries and places that didn't lockdown to have performed badly. That just isn't the case.

In fact some of the places with a much stricter lockdown have performed worse.

https://translational-medicine.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12967-020-02501-x

“Strict lockdown strategies together with a wide diagnostic PCR testing of the population were correlated with a relevant decline of the case fatality rate in different Countries. ”

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(20)30984-1/fulltext

“Lockdown measures outperform less stringent restrictions in reducing cumulative deaths”

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5 hours ago, leedsvaliant said:

If it were the case that lockdown worked then surely you'd expect all lockdown countries to have performed relatively well in terms of deaths and all countries and places that didn't lockdown to have performed badly. That just isn't the case.

In fact some of the places with a much stricter lockdown have performed worse.

There are lock downs and there are what the UK went with.

Thailand locked down. No inbound, outbound or internal flights. The only flights permitted were repatriation flights which imported cases. There were even restrictions on traveling between areas and curfews. 

When they started a restricted access flights programme all travelers were collected at the airport and transported to selective quarantine hotels and confined for 14 days, 10 days in the rooms.

There have been people stuck here for months, so much so they had to change their visa policy.

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6 hours ago, leedsvaliant said:

If it were the case that lockdown worked then surely you'd expect all lockdown countries to have performed relatively well in terms of deaths and all countries and places that didn't lockdown to have performed badly. That just isn't the case.

In fact some of the places with a much stricter lockdown have performed worse.

All lockdown countries haven't had the same lockdown. Ours was fine until the Dominic Cummings incident and after that has been nothing like a lockdown. 

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10 hours ago, leedsvaliant said:
10 hours ago, sunny boslem said:
Out of 3 lockdowns no one was vaccinated for shall we say 2 and a half of them 
going forward you have a point aslong as the vaccine works there should be no more lockdowns but the last 12 months your making yourself look a little selfish mate 

Again I take umbridge with the selfish part. It's someone's personal choice to be vaccinated or not. I haven't decided yet and no amount of coercion or guilt tripping will make me feel any different. If the vulnerable people are vaccinated then in my opinion that's good enough. I've yet to be convinced why anyone else should, especially children which is just plain wrong.

I have some empathy with your pov but the whole point of herd immunity is to get >80% of a population/community immune by vaccination etc so that the chances are any person the virus jumps to is immune and the virus gets destroyed. Without a large number of immune people within a community the virus can spread to a none-immune person, cause COVID-19 and infect other people, its a never ending cycle.

There is precedent with other viruses eg polio (I think) where the disease caused by the virus has been virtually eradicated in a country/community and people in that community have stopped taking the vaccine, someone then comes into that community with the virus then there's a sudden spike in disease, such a shame 'cause it's entirely preventable.

We sometimes forget how lucky we are to live in the Western World with Western Medicine and everyone who has access to a COVID-19 vaccine should take it for the benefit of themselves and their fellow citizens. There are children who have passed away from COVID-19 or been left incapacitated with Long-COVID after infection but as far as I know after millions of people have been fully inoculated, no one has died from taking the vaccine or suffered any serious side-effects and no one fully or partially inoculated has died from COVID-19. I like those odds!!

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4 minutes ago, Paul6754 said:

I have some empathy with your pov but the whole point of herd immunity is to get >80% of a population/community immune by vaccination etc so that the chances are any person the virus jumps to is immune and the virus gets destroyed. Without a large number of immune people within a community the virus can spread to a none-immune person, cause COVID-19 and infect other people, its a never ending cycle.

There is precedent with other viruses eg polio (I think) where the disease caused by the virus has been virtually eradicated in a country/community and people in that community have stopped taking the vaccine, someone then comes into that community with the virus then there's a sudden spike in disease, such a shame 'cause it's entirely preventable.

We sometimes forget how lucky we are to live in the Western World with Western Medicine and everyone who has access to a COVID-19 vaccine should take it for the benefit of themselves and their fellow citizens. There are children who have passed away from COVID-19 or been left incapacitated with Long-COVID after infection but as far as I know after millions of people have been fully inoculated, no one has died from taking the vaccine or suffered any serious side-effects and no one fully or partially inoculated has died from COVID-19. I like those odds!!

You're wasting your time. Covid won't effect LV so he is just fine. 

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All lockdown countries haven't had the same lockdown. Ours was fine until the Dominic Cummings incident and after that has been nothing like a lockdown. 
But then those who have had none or very little lockdown would have performed worse by that logic. It doesn't just work one way.

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You're wasting your time. Covid won't effect LV so he is just fine. 
On the contrary, I found that explanation decent and informed, rather than the usual 'kill granny!' shouts that get thrown at me. At least the person had the decency to respect my viewpoint rather than decrying me as some sort of monster.

You're right however, Covid-19 won't affect me and I'd be very very unlucky if it killed or made seriously ill someone I cared about. I don't want other people to die but it's the arse about face way we have tried to protect people at the sacrifice of all else.

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https://translational-medicine.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12967-020-02501-x
“Strict lockdown strategies together with a wide diagnostic PCR testing of the population were correlated with a relevant decline of the case fatality rate in different Countries. ”
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(20)30984-1/fulltext
“Lockdown measures outperform less stringent restrictions in reducing cumulative deaths”
One uses mathematical modelling (doesn't take into account the real world, see Ferguson's list of epic failures) and the other looks at 7 countries. You're slipping Andy!

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1 minute ago, leedsvaliant said:

One uses mathematical modelling (doesn't take into account the real world, see Ferguson's list of epic failures) and the other looks at 7 countries. You're slipping Andy!

It literally includes the country you have been banging on about. You were saying something about moving the goalposts. What have you offered to counter it. Oh yes your opinion based on a Toby young blog.

Here’s another from nature, the well know biased lame stream media:

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2405-7

“Our results show that major non-pharmaceutical interventions—and lockdowns in particular—have had a large effect on reducing transmission. Continued intervention should be considered to keep transmission of SARS-CoV-2 under control.”

Another?

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41562-020-01009-0

“The most effective NPIs include curfews, lockdowns and closing and restricting places where people gather in smaller or large numbers for an extended period of time. This includes small gathering cancellations (closures of shops, restaurants, gatherings of 50 persons or fewer, mandatory home working and so on) and closure of educational institutions.”


Im not saying there won’t be the odd study from someone claiming the opposite, but the consensus is pretty wide. Also remember that lockdowns aren’t the end game for the virus. They are there to control it until the vaccine is available. 

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It literally includes the country you have been banging on about. You were saying something about moving the goalposts. What have you offered to counter it. Oh yes your opinion based on a Toby young blog.
Here’s another from nature, the well know biased lame stream media:
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2405-7
“Our results show that major non-pharmaceutical interventions—and lockdowns in particular—have had a large effect on reducing transmission. Continued intervention should be considered to keep transmission of SARS-CoV-2 under control.”

Another?
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41562-020-01009-0
“The most effective NPIs include curfews, lockdowns and closing and restricting places where people gather in smaller or large numbers for an extended period of time. This includes small gathering cancellations (closures of shops, restaurants, gatherings of 50 persons or fewer, mandatory home working and so on) and closure of educational institutions.”

Im not saying there won’t be the odd study from someone claiming the opposite, but the consensus is pretty wide. Also remember that lockdowns aren’t the end game for the virus. They are there to control it until the vaccine is available. 
They say they are effective for the immediate issue, but that's not really addressing my point of long term damage and death. They also fail to address places that haven't locked down who have performed relatively well. It's a pretty one-sided review.

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It literally includes the country you have been banging on about. You were saying something about moving the goalposts. What have you offered to counter it. Oh yes your opinion based on a Toby young blog.
Here’s another from nature, the well know biased lame stream media:
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2405-7
“Our results show that major non-pharmaceutical interventions—and lockdowns in particular—have had a large effect on reducing transmission. Continued intervention should be considered to keep transmission of SARS-CoV-2 under control.”

Another?
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41562-020-01009-0
“The most effective NPIs include curfews, lockdowns and closing and restricting places where people gather in smaller or large numbers for an extended period of time. This includes small gathering cancellations (closures of shops, restaurants, gatherings of 50 persons or fewer, mandatory home working and so on) and closure of educational institutions.”

Im not saying there won’t be the odd study from someone claiming the opposite, but the consensus is pretty wide. Also remember that lockdowns aren’t the end game for the virus. They are there to control it until the vaccine is available. 
So if the end game out of them is vaccine then why is there talk of continuing restrictions, masks and social distancing well into the future? I know you say you have answered that question but I'm still at a loss. Surely most vulnerable people protected from dying = freedom for all, even if that means a few deaths that we manage with flu each year. Unfortunately old people have to die of something.

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8 hours ago, leedsvaliant said:

They say they are effective for the immediate issue, but that's not really addressing my point of long term damage and death. They also fail to address places that haven't locked down who have performed relatively well. It's a pretty one-sided review.

Literally in the first paragraph of one:

“We validate our findings with two external datasets recording 42,151 additional NPIs from 226 countries.”

Ive also showed how specifically one includes Sweden. What’s the point of making things up when it’s written literally in the link? And say you’re not a conspiracy theorist but you seem to suggest a majority of scientists are purposely ignoring the truth for reasons you won’t say (unless they are also following the ‘we’ve gone this far might as well carry on’ nonsense).

And your point was that lockdowns don’t work. Again, you mentioned moving the goalposts?

8 hours ago, leedsvaliant said:
9 hours ago, Andyregs said:
It literally includes the country you have been banging on about. You were saying something about moving the goalposts. What have you offered to counter it. Oh yes your opinion based on a Toby young blog.
Here’s another from nature, the well know biased lame stream media:
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2405-7
“Our results show that major non-pharmaceutical interventions—and lockdowns in particular—have had a large effect on reducing transmission. Continued intervention should be considered to keep transmission of SARS-CoV-2 under control.”

Another?
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41562-020-01009-0
“The most effective NPIs include curfews, lockdowns and closing and restricting places where people gather in smaller or large numbers for an extended period of time. This includes small gathering cancellations (closures of shops, restaurants, gatherings of 50 persons or fewer, mandatory home working and so on) and closure of educational institutions.”

Im not saying there won’t be the odd study from someone claiming the opposite, but the consensus is pretty wide. Also remember that lockdowns aren’t the end game for the virus. They are there to control it until the vaccine is available. 

So if the end game out of them is vaccine then why is there talk of continuing restrictions, masks and social distancing well into the future? I know you say you have answered that question but I'm still at a loss. Surely most vulnerable people protected from dying = freedom for all, even if that means a few deaths that we manage with flu each year. Unfortunately old people have to die of something.

I have answered. And all the talk right now is the roadmap to end restrictions. You’re at a loss because you’re only accepting information from the crazies on that blog. The lancet, bmj, nature...all in on this conspiracy to misinform the public for ‘reasons’, but Toby youngs blog is the fountain of truth with its dodgy Facebook memes. Unless you can give a reason why you think governments will needlessly carry on with restrictions. I think you must be missing some theory out here that you refuse to say on this board. 

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I have answered. And all the talk right now is the roadmap to end restrictions. You’re at a loss because you’re only accepting information from the crazies on that blog. The lancet, bmj, nature...all in on this conspiracy to misinform the public for ‘reasons’, but Toby youngs blog is the fountain of truth with its dodgy Facebook memes. Unless you can give a reason why you think governments will needlessly carry on with restrictions. I think you must be missing some theory out here that you refuse to say on this board. 
Oh come on Andy you're slipping! You're just using your little library of sources to throw anything that half supports your point, but not addressing the fact that these don't look at long term effects. The Sweden facts are clear, they haven't done anywhere near as badly as lockdown supporters would want them to and there's no getting away from that, nor any of the other countries or states who haven't locked down. By lockdown logic, these places would have been worst affected across the board.

If the roadmap goes as it says and ALL restrictions come off the table on June 21st then we can shake hands and move on from this sorry episode in our history I've a feeling people are going to be disappointed. Just to again clarify the point about conspiracy theory....I again would say that I would be as mystified as anyone as to why any restrictions would continue beyond the current end point. The vaccine data currently shows clearly that once all vulnerable people have been vaccinated (which has virtually already happened, yet for some unknown reason we're waiting until June 21st) that hospitalisations and deaths will go to ridiculously low levels. We're basically concerned about variants that usually become less deadly. You can't work on this as a 'just in case ' as you'll never want to loosen restrictions.

Yes, that site does have its share of nutters, but you'll find that on pro lockdown sites too. What it has provided is a wealth of articles, evidence, interviews with experts that supports the alternative view. You might not agree with any of it, but you can't just decry it as nutters.

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Just as an aside, did you know that the lawyer who took Volkswagen to court over the emissions scandal (and won), is forming a civil action lawsuit against the German government against lockdowns. Obviously there is no guarantee he will win, but he's a top lawyer putting his reputation on the line as he is confident of winning. That could really send the pack of cards tumbling.

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8 hours ago, leedsvaliant said:

Oh come on Andy you're slipping! You're just using your little library of sources to throw anything that half supports your point, but not addressing the fact that these don't look at long term effects. The Sweden facts are clear, they haven't done anywhere near as badly as lockdown supporters would want them to and there's no getting away from that, nor any of the other countries or states who haven't locked down. By lockdown logic, these places would have been worst affected across the board.

If the roadmap goes as it says and ALL restrictions come off the table on June 21st then we can shake hands and move on from this sorry episode in our history I've a feeling people are going to be disappointed. Just to again clarify the point about conspiracy theory....I again would say that I would be as mystified as anyone as to why any restrictions would continue beyond the current end point. The vaccine data currently shows clearly that once all vulnerable people have been vaccinated (which has virtually already happened, yet for some unknown reason we're waiting until June 21st) that hospitalisations and deaths will go to ridiculously low levels. We're basically concerned about variants that usually become less deadly. You can't work on this as a 'just in case ' as you'll never want to loosen restrictions.

Yes, that site does have its share of nutters, but you'll find that on pro lockdown sites too. What it has provided is a wealth of articles, evidence, interviews with experts that supports the alternative view. You might not agree with any of it, but you can't just decry it as nutters.

No, youre trying to move the goalposts to a different argument now. Your point was that lock down doesn’t work.  These specifically address your argument and include Sweden in most of them. If they found the opposite you’d be all over them. You even go back to the ‘lockdown down doesn’t work because Sweden by the end of the sentence’ lol. 
just look at the title of the studies:

“Impact of lockdown on Covid-19 case fatality rate and viral mutations spread in 7 countries in Europe and North America”

“Estimating the effects of non-pharmaceutical interventions on COVID-19 in Europe”
 

Pretty much addresses the ‘lockdowns don’t work’ question. But hey, I’m using sources (god forbid) to address the point you made. So nothing to see here.

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No, youre trying to move the goalposts to a different argument now. Your point was that lock down doesn’t work.  These specifically address your argument and include Sweden in most of them. If they found the opposite you’d be all over them. You even go back to the ‘lockdown down doesn’t work because Sweden by the end of the sentence’ lol. 
just look at the title of the studies:
“Impact of lockdown on Covid-19 case fatality rate and viral mutations spread in 7 countries in Europe and North America”
“Estimating the effects of non-pharmaceutical interventions on COVID-19 in Europe”
 
Pretty much addresses the ‘lockdowns don’t work’ question. But hey, I’m using sources (god forbid) to address the point you made. So nothing to see here.
I believe they neither work (they've simply pushed deaths into danger months and made the situation worse) nor do I believe they do not cause much more severe issues for years to come. No amount of 'mathematical models ' from your extensive library of sources would convince me otherwise.

Here's an article from your favourite website from another 'nutter' , yes a Harvard Professor of medicine and expert in epidemiology but because he speaks out against the tactics of the government, he's clearly a conspiracy theorist and crackpot. His message is important though and perhaps something you should take heed of.

https://lockdownsceptics.org/we-cannot-afford-to-censor-dissenting-voices-during-a-pandemic-prof-martin-kulldorff/

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20 hours ago, leedsvaliant said:

Just as an aside, did you know that the lawyer who took Volkswagen to court over the emissions scandal (and won), is forming a civil action lawsuit against the German government against lockdowns. Obviously there is no guarantee he will win, but he's a top lawyer putting his reputation on the line as he is confident of winning. That could really send the pack of cards tumbling.

What does that prove? Even if he wins, all it demonstrates is that within a narrow, legal intepretation of 'lockdown' vs whatever it is that he is claiming, that he is able to prove something, other than he is against lockdowns. It won't send anything tumbling, given that he will be arguing within German law, not something universal. 

Lockdowns aren't implemented to satisfy the courts, they are implemented to try and prevent unnecessary sickness and loss of life. 

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