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28 minutes ago, leedsvaliant said:

Once again, these vaccines don't stop you getting the virus or transmitting it

 

2 minutes ago, leedsvaliant said:

  I'm sure there is an effect on transmission

 

 

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23 minutes ago, leedsvaliant said:

It's a case of blindly ploughing on and following the lead of others. The World War 1 analogy is a good one.

Have they really? If they had then they'd know the immense cost, not just to lives but livelihoods longterm. I suggest you read that document properly. It won't change your view, but it might make you think.

I know you'll never change your mind but I believe that I will be on the right side of history and we'll look back on some of the decisions made with incredulity.

You often accuse me of handpicking things to fit my argument, but you do the same and either disregard or attempt to paint any alternative views as conspiracy theories.

Yes, but you said it couldn’t be trusted as it was from the government. You’re now at the point where you’re arguing that the government haven’t taken into account the impact (with zero evidence offered) and when they did it’s biased therefore you’re still correct in saying they didn’t take into account the impact. 
As for the article, I wasn’t questioning what was in it, I did question who it was by and why this one is the one you choose to believe. You’re searching for evidence to back up what you want to believe which is completely the wrong way around. 

21 minutes ago, leedsvaliant said:

I never said that. Again, you try and put words that aren't there. This is a worse and more virulent virus than flu but the principles are the same. 20-30k people die every year of flu but we don't all get vaccinated for the greater good. Presumably you think healthy people should also be vaccinated for the flu?

Once again, these vaccines don't stop you getting the virus or transmitting it, so even if I were to get it, I wouldn't be protecting those people anyway.

Healthy people get vaccines all the time. What are you in about. Perhaps we should never have vaccinated against polio or measles etc. God it’s only a rash after all. Why wouldn’t healthy people get vaccinated for the flu?

The last comment is again just made up because you want it to be true. The best information suggests that we don’t know for sure but the evidence suggests that it at least lowers the chances of the virus being passed on. 

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Quote

59% of all transmission came from asymptomatic transmission, comprising 35% from presymptomatic individuals and 24% from individuals who never develop symptoms. Under a broad range of values for each of these assumptions, at least 50% of new SARSCoV-2 infections was estimated to have originated from exposure to individuals with infection but without symptoms.

 

Quote

In addition to identification and isolation of persons with symptomatic COVID-19, effective control of spread will require reducing the risk of transmission from people with infection who do not have symptoms

 

Asymptomatic SARS-CoV-2 Transmission - M A Johansson PhD et al.pdf

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8 minutes ago, leedsvaliant said:

 
I agree with that and I'm sure there is an effect on transmission. It's just that if I had symptoms I would self isolate as I don't believe that asymptomatic transmission plays any (or very little) part in spreading the virus.

The mental gymnastics needed to keep changing your ‘facts’ to fit your reality.

Are we really going to not get people vaccinated because we can trust COVID conspiracy theorists to self isolate? I’ll be honest, I wouldn’t want my other half’s life left in the hands of those who argued we should have just carried on as normal through a global pandemic. 

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The mental gymnastics needed to keep changing your ‘facts’ to fit your reality.
Are we really going to not get people vaccinated because we can trust COVID conspiracy theorists to self isolate? I’ll be honest, I wouldn’t want my other half’s life left in the hands of those who argued we should have just carried on as normal through a global pandemic. 
And I think that's the crux of it. You feel it's the right thing to do through fear of your vulnerable wife and I totally get that.

In terms of protecting the most vulnerable, if we say that asymptomatic transmission is not a driver of pandemics( quote from the WHO), then surely a better way would be to isolate if you have symptoms (which most people would do anyway). We shouldn't be treated like children with all this 'hands, face, space nonsense and having to stand on a spot in a shop.

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Healthy people get vaccines all the time. What are you in about. Perhaps we should never have vaccinated against polio or measles etc. God it’s only a rash after all. Why wouldn’t healthy people get vaccinated for the flu?
The last comment is again just made up because you want it to be true. The best information suggests that we don’t know for sure but the evidence suggests that it at least lowers the chances of the virus being passed on. 
But that's the thing..healthy people have never previously got the flu vaccine. It's rightly targeted at the most vulnerable, as this should be.

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7 minutes ago, leedsvaliant said:

And I think that's the crux of it. You feel it's the right thing to do through fear of your vulnerable wife and I totally get that.

In terms of protecting the most vulnerable, if we say that asymptomatic transmission is not a driver of pandemics( quote from the WHO), then surely a better way would be to isolate if you have symptoms (which most people would do anyway). We shouldn't be treated like children with all this 'hands, face, space nonsense and having to stand on a spot in a shop.

Again, me me me. Why should I have to think of others. 
So you’re suggestion now is that anyone with a cough, from now until forever, needs to isolate for two weeks. And anyone old or vulnerable should never leave the house? What about the people they live with? Or should they be allowed to pass it on so someone else can isolate too? All so you don’t have to stand on a spot and respect someone’s personal space. 
 

Edited by Andyregs

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4 minutes ago, leedsvaliant said:
19 minutes ago, Andyregs said:
Healthy people get vaccines all the time. What are you in about. Perhaps we should never have vaccinated against polio or measles etc. God it’s only a rash after all. Why wouldn’t healthy people get vaccinated for the flu?
The last comment is again just made up because you want it to be true. The best information suggests that we don’t know for sure but the evidence suggests that it at least lowers the chances of the virus being passed on. 

But that's the thing..healthy people have never previously got the flu vaccine. It's rightly targeted at the most vulnerable, as this should be.

COVID isn’t the flu, just as polio, malaria, measles etc aren’t the flu. We are back to your COVID is the flu conspiracy nonsense again. 

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29 minutes ago, leedsvaliant said:
44 minutes ago, Andyregs said:
Healthy people get vaccines all the time. What are you in about. Perhaps we should never have vaccinated against polio or measles etc. God it’s only a rash after all. Why wouldn’t healthy people get vaccinated for the flu?
The last comment is again just made up because you want it to be true. The best information suggests that we don’t know for sure but the evidence suggests that it at least lowers the chances of the virus being passed on. 

But that's the thing..healthy people have never previously got the flu vaccine. It's rightly targeted at the most vulnerable, as this should be.

I'm fit and healthy and get the flu jab every year... Heard immunity and all that. 

Edited by Iron Curtain
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17 hours ago, Mario said:

So the AZ jab is safe ...............keep up EU you are costing lives.

 

They are trying every trick in the book to disrupt our vaccine rollout, even though their own EMA and the WHO have both said the AZ jab is safe.The EU's fake news has scared the population so much that less than 50% of the AZ jabs have been used.Send them over here,we'll have them,oh,hang on!!

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Again, me me me. Why should I have to think of others. 
So you’re suggestion now is that anyone with a cough, from now until forever, needs to isolate for two weeks. And anyone old or vulnerable should never leave the house? What about the people they live with? Or should they be allowed to pass it on so someone else can isolate too? All so you don’t have to stand on a spot and respect someone’s personal space. 
 
And again, making up your own assumptions. I do think of others, whereby I look at the massively devastating effects that lockdown has on lives and livelihoods. Again, you can't call someone selfish where you are actually being so yourself.

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6 minutes ago, leedsvaliant said:
1 hour ago, Andyregs said:
Again, me me me. Why should I have to think of others. 
So you’re suggestion now is that anyone with a cough, from now until forever, needs to isolate for two weeks. And anyone old or vulnerable should never leave the house? What about the people they live with? Or should they be allowed to pass it on so someone else can isolate too? All so you don’t have to stand on a spot and respect someone’s personal space. 
 

And again, making up your own assumptions. I do think of others, whereby I look at the massively devastating effects that lockdown has on lives and livelihoods. Again, you can't call someone selfish where you are actually being so yourself.

How have I been selfish?

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31 minutes ago, For Us All said:

They are trying every trick in the book to disrupt our vaccine rollout, even though their own EMA and the WHO have both said the AZ jab is safe.The EU's fake news has scared the population so much that less than 50% of the AZ jabs have been used.Send them over here,we'll have them,oh,hang on!!

I think maybe it’s more of a political football for how they appear to their own voters rather than the eu disrupting our vaccine on purpose. However as I’ve said before, you can be a remainer abs think the response within the eu has been terrible. And the attack on the az vaccine which was originally based knowingly on such massively flawed data was a disgrace. 

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How have I been selfish?
Because you quite rightly put your own fears and the vulnerability at the forefront and I get that. One of the few things the government has done well is the immense psychological programming of the population to fear other people and to convince people that they are in mortal peril as soon as they go outside. I ran past a woman who held a tissue over her mouth as I went past the other day, if it wasn't so tragic it would be laughable.


You very rarely give much credence to other effects of lockdown or even acknowledge that they are potentially worse than the virus itself. There's an overriding 'we must do whatever is necessary to protect against this virus ' rather than thinking about other aspects.

You also never ever understand or have compassion for another person's point of view. I get that you don't believe it but sometimes you have to be accepting. Your default position is to dismiss all counter arguments as they are not experienced enough or expert enough that they can't possibly be better than government scientists. You also resort to calling me a Covid denier, hoaxer, conspiracy theorist, when actually much of my argument is based around the facts available. Name calling is the worst form of debate. What don't you agree with out of the HART document?

I'm fascinated to see how people explain away similar outcomes in countries despite very different lockdown approaches. It's almost like this is a seasonal virus and no matter what you do it doesn't make any difference.... surely the default position should be to do nothing? I heard a fascinating interview with Dr Lee the other day which basically said, when did we ever make risk decisions based on worst case scenarios?



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