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1 hour ago, Wrex said:

I think the Toyah's issue is that the way you are wording your messages seems to imply there is some kind of sentience or design to natural processes. Like with the paragraph I quoted here.

I didn't read your original post to mean viruses were purposefully mutating in order to survive, but one could read it that way.

Wrex, I can't make it any clearer other than to say/post as I did above, "Mutations occur naturally and randomly",  I've never said or intimated there is any element of design to the natural, random process of mutation.

Some mutations enable the virus to adapt/change for the  better, some worse and some the same, it  just depends which codon(s) were miss-read.

Probably recently, the SARS-Cov-19 virus mutated which enabled it to spread and infect human cells hence the mutation increased the viruses chance of survival as it enabled it to successfully spread to another species. 

If there are no mutations there is no evolution.

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8 hours ago, bycars rob said:

I see we have no joined in with the European joint procurement effort for ventilators after the government missed out on the previous 3 orders saying they missed the e-mail. What a shambles.

I thought we had ordered 10k of these off tory donor ,brexiteer dyson although we haven`t even tested them.

Just going from an article in The Guardian online the advantage of the scheme is they are bulk buying to try and get a lower price rather than quicker delivery. What we don't know is:

1 what price the ventilators are to the UK and under the EU scheme

2 as ventilators are delivered under the EU scheme how the EU determine the order they are supplied to individual countries

3 the delay between an order being placed into the EU scheme and orders being collated from all member states and the EU placing the order with a manufacturer. There will be some delay as there is an extra layer of bureaucracy 

I thought the Liberal MP who made this an issue initially was frankly talking rubbish. He was saying this scheme was an additional source of ventilators. That is clearly incorrect as the EU does not make ventilators in its own right, it is buying them from private companies around the world. So if HMG has already placed an order for 10000 ventilators with the same manufacturer the EU subsequently places their order with its just ordering additional equipment from the same source. So in terms of supply its only an advantage IF a manufacturer supplies the EU order submitted at a later date first. I haven't seen any evidence this is or isn't the case but would suggest this is the criteria to judge the wisdom or folly of not joining the EU scheme.

A lot of governments around the world are asking local companies to start making ventilators because existing suppliers have no inventory and lack the production capacity to meet demand. Not sure a Dyson ventilator will necessarily work less well than one from Boeing or Toyota because Dyson donates money to a particular party. My understanding is Dyson is one of a number of businesses orders have been placed with. You would expect a fall in the quality of all ventilators purchased at this time; existing suppliers due to working beyond capacity, new entrants as they need to gain experience in production.

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1 hour ago, JRC said:

Just going from an article in The Guardian online the advantage of the scheme is they are bulk buying to try and get a lower price rather than quicker delivery. What we don't know is:

1 what price the ventilators are to the UK and under the EU scheme

2 as ventilators are delivered under the EU scheme how the EU determine the order they are supplied to individual countries

3 the delay between an order being placed into the EU scheme and orders being collated from all member states and the EU placing the order with a manufacturer. There will be some delay as there is an extra layer of bureaucracy 

I thought the Liberal MP who made this an issue initially was frankly talking rubbish. He was saying this scheme was an additional source of ventilators. That is clearly incorrect as the EU does not make ventilators in its own right, it is buying them from private companies around the world. So if HMG has already placed an order for 10000 ventilators with the same manufacturer the EU subsequently places their order with its just ordering additional equipment from the same source. So in terms of supply its only an advantage IF a manufacturer supplies the EU order submitted at a later date first. I haven't seen any evidence this is or isn't the case but would suggest this is the criteria to judge the wisdom or folly of not joining the EU scheme.

A lot of governments around the world are asking local companies to start making ventilators because existing suppliers have no inventory and lack the production capacity to meet demand. Not sure a Dyson ventilator will necessarily work less well than one from Boeing or Toyota because Dyson donates money to a particular party. My understanding is Dyson is one of a number of businesses orders have been placed with. You would expect a fall in the quality of all ventilators purchased at this time; existing suppliers due to working beyond capacity, new entrants as they need to gain experience in production.

Putting all your eggs in one basket would be stupid, so I wouldn`t rule out dyson or the EU route but one thing is for sure if I was a supplier of ventilators, would I deal with a group of 27 countries or just one individual one. No brainer, again we got there eventually  albeit late. 

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Just to try and lighten the discussion. I have sat down this morning and watched the news. With so many criticisms bandying around concerning people's greed and inhumane actions I thought I'd share my heartfelt thanks to ALL those  fantastic people out there that are assisting our Country into getting back on it's feet.

The applause last night and the many stories now coming out about individuals and groups attempting to help the NHS and others  out brought a few tears to my eyes in realization what a fabulous Country we live in. Generosity beyond bounds , even from those who can ill afford together with donations of money and help from the more privilidged in our society give one a sense that we are as one.and we stand together. 

My faith in human nature is being lifted by the actions of many, many people from all sections of society and we can beat this evil scare. Life is going to be very much different in so many ways when we come out the other side so hopefully we can use this dark time to reflect and agree to make life better for everyone in future.

Keep safe and healthy all. Love to you.x

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8 minutes ago, onestepatatime said:

Just to try and lighten the discussion. I have sat down this morning and watched the news. With so many criticisms bandying around concerning people's greed and inhumane actions I thought I'd share my heartfelt thanks to ALL those  fantastic people out there that are assisting our Country into getting back on it's feet.

The applause last night and the many stories now coming out about individuals and groups attempting to help the NHS and others  out brought a few tears to my eyes in realization what a fabulous Country we live in. Generosity beyond bounds , even from those who can ill afford together with donations of money and help from the more privilidged in our society give one a sense that we are as one.and we stand together. 

My faith in human nature is being lifted by the actions of many, many people from all sections of society and we can beat this evil scare. Life is going to be very much different in so many ways when we come out the other side so hopefully we can use this dark time to reflect and agree to make life better for everyone in future.

Keep safe and healthy all. Love to you.x

Finest country on earth,bar none,one step.Take care.

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I was a bit concerned when I saw the “Clap for healthcare workers “ headline .Haven’t they got enough to put up with?God bless them.

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Nice sentiments.

Going back to this ventilator business, the government got it wrong.

No 10 said a few days ago that we weren't joining, we had left the EU and we'd get our own. But strangely last week on QT Hancock lied and said that we had joined the scheme. Now, today, we have another story. We didn't get the e-mail! But we will join a scheme in the future. You couldn't make it up. The EU tell us that the UK was invited again to join on 6 and 10 March, received communication to that effect but declined. Three days before the EU deadline expired, the UK asked British firms if they could help, so we still had time to apply at the last minute but instead let the deadline pass(Financial Times).

Countries can source their own, in addition to being part of the EU scheme, but definitively the purchasing power of 26 countries is greater than a single one acting alone. And they don't necessarily use the same sources.

We are asking a lot of companies that have never made ventilators before to try and build them from scratch, and to put all our eggs into this one basket. Let's hope it works.

A Nantwich firm supposedly offered 5000 (plus testing equipment) via a UAE source but the government failed to take up the offer within 5 days and we lost the contract (Nantwich News). MEC Medical also offered their services but were ignored. Several days later the government tells us it's ordered 10000 from Dyson, if feasible. I applaud that. But for goodness sake, make use of every single company and every single outlet. Don't just rely on Tory Brexit donors. And don't lie to the press about not receiving invites from the EU and making up excuses for not joining the scheme when we've got Hancock on record 7 days ago saying the opposite.

We should be straining every sinew, exploring every outlet, joining every scheme we can, to get these machines. 

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12 hours ago, bycars rob said:

I see we have no joined in with the European joint procurement effort for ventilators after the government missed out on the previous 3 orders saying they missed the e-mail. What a shambles.

I thought we had ordered 10k of these off tory donor ,brexiteer dyson although we haven`t even tested them.

Unfortunately,Boris has developed symptoms of Covid 19 and been put on a Dyson ventilator.Word as it he's now picking up nicely.

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2 hours ago, bycars rob said:

Putting all your eggs in one basket would be stupid, so I wouldn`t rule out dyson or the EU route but one thing is for sure if I was a supplier of ventilators, would I deal with a group of 27 countries or just one individual one. No brainer, again we got there eventually  albeit late. 

My understanding is we already have ventilators on order from a number of new and existing manufacturers.  The point of the EU scheme was cost reduction not quicker supply from existing manufacturers, which it is probably fair to assume are existing suppliers to the NHS. Existing manufacturers know 2 things

1 current demand far exceeds supply so there is no need to offer any discount

2 when the current crisis is over it will be many years before they make profit again because hospitals will have many more in stock than they require in normal situations. Again that reduces the leverage to give a discount as they know customer loyalty isn't going to lead to any future sales for many years.

The main point though is the EU route isn't a new source of supply. Until a few weeks ago there was a very small group of known manufacturers of ventilators. Every healthcare system in the world will know who they are. Even if they don't 50% of world output was in Ireland, so locating them wouldn't be an epic job. So the EU route isn't a new source it just give a different way to try and access the sources we already used and had already placed orders with.

The acid test for this stratgy is if the EU order gets delivered in preference to the existing orders. The UK with a nationwide NHS already gets many purchasing economies compared to smaller countries or countries like Italy where healthcare is organised on a regional basis. One of the complaints in the US about healthcare is the large discounts the NHS gets from their medical companies that their fragmented providers don't. So the cost saving reasons behind the scheme are probably less advantageous to us than, say, Luxembourg. 

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31 minutes ago, TheSage said:

Nice sentiments.

Going back to this ventilator business, the government got it wrong.

No 10 said a few days ago that we weren't joining, we had left the EU and we'd get our own. But strangely last week on QT Hancock lied and said that we had joined the scheme. Now, today, we have another story. We didn't get the e-mail! But we will join a scheme in the future. You couldn't make it up. The EU tell us that the UK was invited again to join on 6 and 10 March, received communication to that effect but declined. Three days before the EU deadline expired, the UK asked British firms if they could help, so we still had time to apply at the last minute but instead let the deadline pass(Financial Times).

Countries can source their own, in addition to being part of the EU scheme, but definitively the purchasing power of 26 countries is greater than a single one acting alone. And they don't necessarily use the same sources.

We are asking a lot of companies that have never made ventilators before to try and build them from scratch, and to put all our eggs into this one basket. Let's hope it works.

A Nantwich firm supposedly offered 5000 (plus testing equipment) via a UAE source but the government failed to take up the offer within 5 days and we lost the contract (Nantwich News). MEC Medical also offered their services but were ignored. Several days later the government tells us it's ordered 10000 from Dyson, if feasible. I applaud that. But for goodness sake, make use of every single company and every single outlet. Don't just rely on Tory Brexit donors. And don't lie to the press about not receiving invites from the EU and making up excuses for not joining the scheme when we've got Hancock on record 7 days ago saying the opposite.

We should be straining every sinew, exploring every outlet, joining every scheme we can, to get these machines. 

One of the issues with using unusual overseas sources is quality control. Spain rushed into buying testing equipment which they have now found doesn't work. Its men and women in offices who will be looking at many offers of supply and having to make decisions. MEC medical are a major current supplier to the NHS but I believe their expertise is the infrastructure for ventilators and gas pipe work in hospitals, not ventilators themselves (I may be wrong). We use some of their products in The Middle East in First Aid facilities at some of our sites. Dyson has delivered a prototype ventilator, unless there is clarity on what the MEC offer was for and how far down the development line they were it is impossible to pass judgement on not taking up offers. What did they offer, when would it be available to test and when can they deliver? I would imagine there will be many similar cases around the country but there is only a finite supply of manpower with the skills to analyse these offers and be able to ensure the reliability and suitability of what we are getting. The scandel in Spain shows that trying to bypass scrutiny of offers can cause greater problems than buying nothing, even in a crisis. I am sure when the dust settles there will have been procurement errors, they are inevitable in something of this scale. I suspect there will be rather more headlines than actual cases of poor procurement as news makers know these stories will grab peoples attention. One would hope the men and women making the decisions will focus on their jobs for now rather than getting sidetracked to answer headlines.

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3 hours ago, bycars rob said:

Putting all your eggs in one basket would be stupid, so I wouldn`t rule out dyson or the EU route but one thing is for sure if I was a supplier of ventilators, would I deal with a group of 27 countries or just one individual one. No brainer, again we got there eventually  albeit late. 

And I would rather we kept production within the U.K. do you really think that Germany, France or any EU country would allow ventilators to be exported to another country if they are short themselves?. France has already stopped exports of face masks and Sanitiser plus add to the fact Italy has a shortage of ventilators.

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A couple of days ago, I posted a video describing the conditions in the Wuhan wet market where Covid-19 first appeared. Since then, I came across this, which describes them in even greater detail and with some graphic photos and video (please do not watch if you are squeamish about animal cruelty).

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/11264885/china-wet-markets-coronavirus-world-knees/

These practices, enshrined in Chinese law, need to be stopped.

In case any one thinks I have a particular beef (so to speak) with the Chinese, try this about Deer Wasting Disease from USA Today. It concerns  a known pathogen that causes a neurological disease for which there is no vaccine and no cure. The virus is so robust, it has been heat-treated at 1000C and survived. It has yet to make the transition from deer to humans but it is only a matter of time - the next accident waiting to happen:

https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2019/02/16/zombie-deer-chronic-wasting-disease-could-affect-humans/2882550002/

The point to all this is that the world has a serious problem with these practices. While its attention is gripped by this, we need to lobby the WHO to ensure that internationally agreed standards of food hygiene and production are in place before we have yet another wholly avoidable pandemic. We are going to pay a terrible price for these vile zoonotic culinary practices unless concerted action is taken. Interestingly, the USA Today article was published in December - just before Corvid-19 sprang to life. Sadly prophetic.

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1 hour ago, CambridgeDon said:

 

https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2019/02/16/zombie-deer-chronic-wasting-disease-could-affect-humans/2882550002/

The point to all this is that the world has a serious problem with these practices. While its attention is gripped by this, we need to lobby the WHO to ensure that internationally agreed standards of food hygiene and production are in place before we have yet another wholly avoidable pandemic. We are going to pay a terrible price for these vile zoonotic culinary practices unless concerted action is taken. Interestingly, the USA Today article was published in December - just before Corvid-19 sprang to life. Sadly prophetic.

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I agree with you when you show that virus' can show up almost any where in the world and your piece from USA Today shows it could have started in America,that should not detract from the fact that latest of many virus' has come from China, no where else but China, it's not good enough to say they have always eaten weird and wonderful food, they were starving 40 odd years ago and they released the list of the kind of animals that could be eaten to alleviate their food shortages  that has caused this, they have spent trillions on all kinds of vanity projects while behind all the bluster they are proving to be a backward 3rd world company. 

And be honest, does anyone really believe the figures that come from China ?

Have they put a lid on it,do you believe them ? I'm sorry if it offends but I dont.

They must have had more notice than they let on to build a bloody big hospital like that in a few days.

 

Edited by Mario
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Again, absolutely outrageous. 

There is no place whatsoever for that filth in a modern world.

I do, genuinely, understand its origins.  But that was 40 years ago for gods sake.  If you're partaking in that now, when there's zero need, you're absolute scum. 

Zero morals

Zero standards 

It needs wiping out

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It may be difficult for many in this country to understand the mentality of many of the Chinese. But many of them do see pretty much all animals as just 'things'. In Europe we mostly treat animals very well, and in the UK in particular we try and raise animal welfare standards even for creatures we eat.

But there are still battery farms in this country, many hens just trapped their whole lives in tiny cages. In America huge 'farms' of pigs, a very intelligent animal, just locked into place so get meat as cheap as possible. Of course there are hunters in the West who go to Africa and shoot endangered species for fun. Those kind of people are thankfully in the minority here, but unfortunately in the majority in China. That is gradually changing over there, with dog owners angry at the dog meat trade. But annoyingly it probably takes something as devastating as this pandemic to turn the tide against the wildlife trade in China amongst the people and authorities there.

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