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They haven’t closed the nhs. They had to bring in thousands of volunteers for gods sake. 
So the fact that I haven't been able to see a doctor for nearly a year, many tens of thousands of people missing cancer diagnosis because it wasn't 'safe', people not going to hospital because it wasn't 'safe', bed levels reduced because it wasn't 'safe'. They might as well have shut it down.

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Just now, leedsvaliant said:
5 minutes ago, Andyregs said:
They haven’t closed the nhs. They had to bring in thousands of volunteers for gods sake. 

So the fact that I haven't been able to see a doctor for nearly a year, many tens of thousands of people missing cancer diagnosis because it wasn't 'safe', people not going to hospital because it wasn't 'safe', bed levels reduced because it wasn't 'safe'. They might as well have shut it down.

Yeah, I mean,  bringing in thousands of extra staff totally shows a calculated government policy to close the nhs for whatever reason I still can’t fathom. The only thing you will say is ‘not to look Bad’ but the scale of the conspiracy just to not look bad doesn’t make any sense. 

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3 minutes ago, leedsvaliant said:
8 minutes ago, Andyregs said:
Don’t say you aren’t a conspiracy theorist then. 

Lockdowns are a government policy.

At least quote yourself properly:

It will be used as an excuse for evermore but it's not the virus causing this, it's calculated government policy.

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5 minutes ago, leedsvaliant said:
10 minutes ago, Andyregs said:
They haven’t closed the nhs. They had to bring in thousands of volunteers for gods sake. 

So the fact that I haven't been able to see a doctor for nearly a year, many tens of thousands of people missing cancer diagnosis because it wasn't 'safe', people not going to hospital because it wasn't 'safe', bed levels reduced because it wasn't 'safe'. They might as well have shut it down.

What don’t you understand? One of the points of lockdown again explained today by Hancock is that if we weren’t in lockdown there would be a much much higher strain on the nhs and you would have literally no chance of appointments. We need the lockdown to reduce the number of people in hospital, not just for this virus but so people who are ill are able to get the proper treatment. 

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What don’t you understand? One of the points of lockdown again explained today by Hancock is that if we weren’t in lockdown there would be a much much higher strain on the nhs and you would have literally no chance of appointments. We need the lockdown to reduce the number of people in hospital, not just for this virus but so people who are ill are able to get the proper treatment. 
I get that and it was a sensible short term policy back in April to ensure the NHS was prepared and when we knew very little about the ifr rate. It still doesn't address the long term damage of this policy. It's a lives vs lives debate. Do you value saving lives in the here and now or potentially saving many more in the future? No doubt it is a difficult decision but many MPs have been asking for a cost/benefit analysis, not just the cost to businesses and livelihoods, but to the ultimate deaths as a result of the lockdown policy...the government still hasn't produced it and to me that's because they don't know. They're just rehashing the same policy and the concerning thing is that they are even considering maintaining it as a viable go-to option every winter, rather than ensuring the NHS is fully prepared.

Serious question ...even after enough people have been vaccinated, would you accept a 4-6 week shutdown every winter?

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Yeah, I mean,  bringing in thousands of extra staff totally shows a calculated government policy to close the nhs for whatever reason I still can’t fathom. The only thing you will say is ‘not to look Bad’ but the scale of the conspiracy just to not look bad doesn’t make any sense. 
I've said a million times that they haven't done any of this for nefarious reasons. They've I'm sure taken action with the best intentions. They've just never bothered to understand the impact beyond a few months. Too concerned about the here and now and looking virtuous but stuff the future generations.

I get why you are supportive of this action, with having vulnerable people in your family. We all have different reasons for believing the rights and wrongs of all this. I don't think we'll ever come to a consensus but I guess history will judge what went right and what went wrong.

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27 minutes ago, leedsvaliant said:

I get that and it was a sensible short term policy back in April to ensure the NHS was prepared and when we knew very little about the ifr rate. It still doesn't address the long term damage of this policy. It's a lives vs lives debate. Do you value saving lives in the here and now or potentially saving many more in the future? No doubt it is a difficult decision but many MPs have been asking for a cost/benefit analysis, not just the cost to businesses and livelihoods, but to the ultimate deaths as a result of the lockdown policy...the government still hasn't produced it and to me that's because they don't know. They're just rehashing the same policy and the concerning thing is that they are even considering maintaining it as a viable go-to option every winter, rather than ensuring the NHS is fully prepared.

Serious question ...even after enough people have been vaccinated, would you accept a 4-6 week shutdown every winter?

No I wouldn’t. However it has only been one winter. I also wouldn’t accept another one after this ends. Hopefully this vaccination works and we can get out of lockdown ASAP. Surely the right option now, regardless of the amount of deaths is to stay in lockdown whilst the vulnerable and old get vaccinated. Not a fan of this government but to give them some credit the early figures on vaccinations is looking positive. I’d personally prefer this lockdown until probably March to ensure enough are vaccinated and hopefully be done with this virus. 
 

You mention lives v lives. Of course it’s tough, I still think the lockdown is the right way to go I think it protects the vulnerable and the NHS which in turn will help patients with serious illnesses much more than us not being in lockdown. I understand the effect on lives and businesses, I know from my job just how hard some have been hit, for me personally I’ve lost thousands due to weddings constantly being cancelled and venues being grade A <ovf censored>. I get your point and I completely understand, it’s crippled the country financially, people financially and businesses not to mention mental health. However where we are now with the cases rising and rising we have to have this lockdown. For me it should have been so much sooner. The massive mistake was putting London in tier 2 which has lead to all this again. 

Don’t think the NHS will ever be fully prepared under this government. 

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No I wouldn’t. However it has only been one winter. I also wouldn’t accept another one after this ends. Hopefully this vaccination works and we can get out of lockdown ASAP. Surely the right option now, regardless of the amount of deaths is to stay in lockdown whilst the vulnerable and old get vaccinated. Not a fan of this government but to give them some credit the early figures on vaccinations is looking positive. I’d personally prefer this lockdown until probably March to ensure enough are vaccinated and hopefully be done with this virus. 
 
You mention lives v lives. Of course it’s tough, I still think the lockdown is the right way to go I think it protects the vulnerable and the NHS which in turn will help patients with serious illnesses much more than us not being in lockdown. I understand the effect on lives and businesses, I know from my job just how hard some have been hit, for me personally I’ve lost thousands due to weddings constantly being cancelled and venues being grade A . I get your point and I completely understand, it’s crippled the country financially, people financially and businesses not to mention mental health. However where we are now with the cases rising and rising we have to have this lockdown. For me it should have been so much sooner. The massive mistake was putting London in tier 2 which has lead to all this again. 
Don’t think the NHS will ever be fully prepared under this government. 
I think that's a pretty fair assessment. I don't think there's an appetite for any more after this and there comes a point where people just want to live rather than exist, even if they are at risk.

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3 hours ago, Andyregs said:

 My wife is going to have an operation soon, but if there aren’t any ICU beds available just in case, then she won’t be able to. So perhaps you can see why anti lockdown knobheads make me angry. 

I hope everything goes well.

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7 hours ago, leedsvaliant said:

I've said a million times that they haven't done any of this for nefarious reasons. They've I'm sure taken action with the best intentions. They've just never bothered to understand the impact beyond a few months. Too concerned about the here and now and looking virtuous but stuff the future generations.

I get why you are supportive of this action, with having vulnerable people in your family. We all have different reasons for believing the rights and wrongs of all this. I don't think we'll ever come to a consensus but I guess history will judge what went right and what went wrong.

You’ve been very vague with why you believe they have done it. Incompetence, concerned with here and now, don’t want to look bad. But you also say that they are going to keep using lockdowns in the future. Why? You actually believe we will get back to normal in the summer but they will introduce another lockdown in the winter. You’re reasoning makes no sense or you’re missing bits out that you believe. And you seem to have already made your mind up that the vaccine won’t work. Why?

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11 hours ago, leedsvaliant said:
11 hours ago, philpvfc said:
We already are, that’s my point. LV says we are 2 weeks behind on deaths reported so either way you look at it, his bell curve of deaths by date or the figures released by the Government which tell us we are over 1000 deaths a day.

I'm sure we will see 1,000 actual deaths in a day soon but you were saying that we'll see deaths averaging 1,000 per day. You'd have to have a number of weeks of 1,000 deaths a day to have an average anywhere near 1,000 deaths in this latest phase.

And you were saying 99% of people infected make a full recovery when it is far less.

 And you were saying that the average deaths was 600 when it was 800. 

Seems like you get your "facts" wrong quite often. Maybe in such a serious debate it might be useful if you brought the truth with you and not over inflated numbers to make your argument look like a meaningful one. 

Thanks 

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4 minutes ago, geosname said:

It isnt but surely if you make a rule you expect/demand others to follow you comply yourself.

He has gone for a bike ride 7 miles away if the headline is correct 

boris ain’t perfect I know but Christ that picking at straws for me 

Piers Morgan’s Xmas holiday is far worse after how he has gobbed off most mornings on tv about lockdowns and everything else the government has done wrong in his opinion 

how many times did he say cancel Xmas leaving older members of our familys alone at home while he goes on holiday with his 

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3 hours ago, sunny boslem said:

He has gone for a bike ride 7 miles away if the headline is correct 

boris ain’t perfect I know but Christ that picking at straws for me 

Piers Morgan’s Xmas holiday is far worse after how he has gobbed off most mornings on tv about lockdowns and everything else the government has done wrong in his opinion 

how many times did he say cancel Xmas leaving older members of our familys alone at home while he goes on holiday with his 

If you have police enforcement of rules the rules should be enforced on all equally.

I have no idea what Morgan has said. 

If the police fine 2 women 5 miles from home for walking and say carrying a coffee is classed as a picnic it's fair to suggest Boris 7 miles from home with his security should also be fined..... and his security.... although they are working and probably classed as essential..... so he can find his way home at a guess.

The question isn't who breaks the rules it should be have the rules been broken.

We cold have a lengthy discussion of the differences between rules and laws and the application of penalties by discretion but the simple issue is if the rule applies it applies to all.

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