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7 hours ago, leedsvaliant said:

I don't know where he has been 'proven' wrong , do you? Toby is a journalist who relies on access to media for his livelihood, he has to be careful. You should read the significant wealth of information he has built up over the last few months...at the very least it will give you an insight into alternative views.

He, nor any of the alternative views are right all the time, but then neither are the mainstream scientists.

Well, the person who runs the site it was posted on, who made the same claim said ‘I got it wrong’. Also the fact the the pandemic is still here is pretty damning evidence that the pandemic wasn’t over in the summer. I’m amazed I have to explain that one.

If we had relied on Toby young (of all people) for our information, we would have stopped social distancing and mask wearing in the summer based on false information. And we would therefore be in a worse position than we are now. And it’s not the only time he’s been debunked and rebuked for spreading misinformation. He is a hack who talked about COVID deaths as collateral damage. And you believe him over the nhs and British medical journal. Again, the company you keep with your beliefs sometimes speaks volumes.

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8 hours ago, leedsvaliant said:

Absolutely true, even at the very peak of the pandemic there were very few days (if any) where there was actually 1,000 deaths on a specific day. It's simply 1000 + deaths were reported on that day. There might be 200 from last Tuesday, 265 from last Wednesday, 57 from December, etc.

It doesn't fit the propoganda to publicise this. Sounds scarier if you hear 1000 deaths today. In fact, if you look at the deaths by day of death, the rate is pretty flat and doesn't rise and rise. Lots of deaths in the past week occurred over the holiday period and so have been delayed in being reported.

Still a difficult situation and a lot of people dying, but it's nothing massively out of the ordinary for this time of year.

Mental that you still think this is all scare tactics and propaganda. You really do need to wake up and stop reading conspiracy theories. 

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Absolutely true, even at the very peak of the pandemic there were very few days (if any) where there was actually 1,000 deaths on a specific day. It's simply 1000 + deaths were reported on that day. There might be 200 from last Tuesday, 265 from last Wednesday, 57 from December, etc.

It doesn't fit the propoganda to publicise this. Sounds scarier if you hear 1000 deaths today. In fact, if you look at the deaths by day of death, the rate is pretty flat and doesn't rise and rise. Lots of deaths in the past week occurred over the holiday period and so have been delayed in being reported.

Still a difficult situation and a lot of people dying, but it's nothing massively out of the ordinary for this time of year.
Divide the excess deaths over February to May by the number of days will give a true picture of the effect of the pandemic. The effect of the 2nd wave can be calculated in a few months time.

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11 hours ago, Nofinikea said:

This is why football at all levels should be suspended.  Its a reason to bend the rules.  I bet folk are nipping round mates houses to watch ifollow all over the country and then when you see situations like Marine you just know its going to be a problem  in the next week.  I also thought the ground seemed a bit busy considering there were not supposed to be fans.  Who were all those sat behind the goal in the stand?  Surely authorities will take some action or will they continue to seek out folk who are walking around a reservoir with a brew...

Madness.  All sport should stop.  

Spot on. A few of my acquaintances are lardies for my sins.

I know for a fact that 4 of them watched the Stoke v Spurs game together with a load of beers . This will be replicated up and down the country with ifollow as you say. 

And yes those in the stand behind the goal confused me yesterday. 

I also felt our away game at Cambridge seemed that way, the stand behind the dugout was very busy with a decent contingent from Vale too . 

Also I noticed yesterday quite a few Police officers in the ground , why ?

Might of been better dispersing the idiots gathered to watch a bus appear. 

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1 hour ago, valiant_593 said:

Mental that you still think this is all scare tactics and propaganda. You really do need to wake up and stop reading conspiracy theories. 

Its gone from I have a slightly different opinion to i am bat <ovf censored> mental in 4 pages 🤣

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Mental that you still think this is all scare tactics and propaganda. You really do need to wake up and stop reading conspiracy theories. 
This isn't conspiracy theories. It's backed up by data. I don't buy into 5g, the great reset, totalitarian state, but I do buy into massive government incompetence, group think and the massive harms of lockdown.

I think you need to look up the definition of 'conspiracy theory '.

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Divide the excess deaths over February to May by the number of days will give a true picture of the effect of the pandemic. The effect of the 2nd wave can be calculated in a few months time.
Definitely the period last spring had a large number of excess deaths, never denied that. We will get a truer reflection of this autumn/winter when we see all cause mortality figures in the next few months.

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Its gone from I have a slightly different opinion to i am bat mental in 4 pages
Classic lockdown zealot. Cast any alternative views as crackpot. It's happened throughout history and eventually we will see who is right and who is wrong.

As I said, I don't think they're using scare tactics and propoganda for nefarious reasons. They genuinely believe that they need to scare people. They just don't seem to understand the long term damage this will do.

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Well, the person who runs the site it was posted on, who made the same claim said ‘I got it wrong’. Also the fact the the pandemic is still here is pretty damning evidence that the pandemic wasn’t over in the summer. I’m amazed I have to explain that one.
If we had relied on Toby young (of all people) for our information, we would have stopped social distancing and mask wearing in the summer based on false information. And we would therefore be in a worse position than we are now. And it’s not the only time he’s been debunked and rebuked for spreading misinformation. He is a hack who talked about COVID deaths as collateral damage. And you believe him over the nhs and British medical journal. Again, the company you keep with your beliefs sometimes speaks volumes.
I say it's more of a casedemic than a pandemic and a misattribution of diagnosis based on an unreliable PCR test. This is compounded by a woefully ill prepared government, a massive lack of available beds due to distancing and a significant lack of staff due to insane isolation rules. All timed to meet the worst time of year for respiratory illness.

I need to dig out some of the graphs I have seen (taken from NHS data which shows that this is not as scary as the picture being painted). Sky news even said the same and they usually love the death stats.

The Lancet reported that lockdowns make very little difference to mortality. Take a look at countries from all over the world, their curves are almost identical, irrelevant of actions taken. In fact, some of the countries with the most totalitarian control have the worst death rates.

I don't agree with Toby Young politically and unfortunately the site has been infiltrated by some far right stuff about Trump etc. As a left leaning person, it should be the polar opposite of my beliefs. However, it has thousands of followers and a great wealth of peer reviewed articles and information to support a different view from mainstream. There's members from across the political spectrum, young and old, students and doctors, Oxbridge graduates, journalists, business owners, vulnerable people on there.


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21 minutes ago, leedsvaliant said:

This isn't conspiracy theories. It's backed up by data. I don't buy into 5g, the great reset, totalitarian state, but I do buy into massive government incompetence, group think and the massive harms of lockdown.

I think you need to look up the definition of 'conspiracy theory '.

The exact arguments you are opposing are backed up by reliable data. 
 

So it’s 1k a day dying currently. What would it be without lockdown? The numbers would be huge! You mention cancer patients and others who need treatment are being pushed back because of this well imagine if we weren’t in lockdown. It’s scary to think how many more cases there would be and then how full the hospitals would be. Facts are they wouldn’t be able to cope and the patients with other life threatening illnesses would be even worse off than now. Lockdown had to come, it’s too late but it has to stay now until this calms down otherwise the numbers will just keep increasing. 

Edited by valiant_593

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2 minutes ago, leedsvaliant said:
4 minutes ago, valiant_593 said:
The exact arguments you are opposing are backed up by reliable data 

Many of the arguments are backed up by the government's own data.

If that was true do you not think the government and the experts would interpret the data that way? 

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If that was true do you not think the government and the experts would interpret the data that way? 
It's an interesting argument. I suspect the government's position is to plan for a worst case scenario which is kind of understandable, but if we took that position for everything we would never leave the house.

Many times they are presented with models (which are of course essentially an educated guess). They don't seem to take into account the actual data, or look at how their predictions turn out. They're using the calamitous Neil Ferguson's model for many policy based decisions and he has a significant track record of poor modelling.

The government scientists interpret it the way that they have, but there are equally many, many scientists and academics who interpret them in a completely different way. Did you know for instance that SAGE has more psychological scientists on it than virologists? It didn't have any virology experts on it until well into June last year. They're a closed group and have set their beliefs and will stick to them.

They seemed to have completely closed off debate from different scientific views because ultimately if they admitted they might be wrong then their reputation and career would be ruined. And these are not views from some bloke of Facebook, they're eminent scientists, doctors, experts in their fields.


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50 minutes ago, leedsvaliant said:

I say it's more of a casedemic than a pandemic and a misattribution of diagnosis based on an unreliable PCR test. This is compounded by a woefully ill prepared government, a massive lack of available beds due to distancing and a significant lack of staff due to insane isolation rules. All timed to meet the worst time of year for respiratory illness.

I need to dig out some of the graphs I have seen (taken from NHS data which shows that this is not as scary as the picture being painted). Sky news even said the same and they usually love the death stats.

The Lancet reported that lockdowns make very little difference to mortality. Take a look at countries from all over the world, their curves are almost identical, irrelevant of actions taken. In fact, some of the countries with the most totalitarian control have the worst death rates.

I don't agree with Toby Young politically and unfortunately the site has been infiltrated by some far right stuff about Trump etc. As a left leaning person, it should be the polar opposite of my beliefs. However, it has thousands of followers and a great wealth of peer reviewed articles and information to support a different view from mainstream. There's members from across the political spectrum, young and old, students and doctors, Oxbridge graduates, journalists, business owners, vulnerable people on there.

 

‘I got it wrong’ 

Not sure how much more clearer it could be.

it’s a blog full of crackpots, and that’s your source you are choosing over scientific consensus and the nhs.  Picking and choosing who to believe to fit what you want. You have to really dig these viewpoints. 
doesn’t the fact that it’s a site run by Toby young that matches with the trump death cults world view say anything?

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‘I got it wrong’ 
Not sure how much more clearer it could be.
it’s a blog full of crackpots, and that’s your source you are choosing over scientific consensus and the nhs.  Picking and choosing who to believe to fit what you want. You have to really dig these viewpoints. 
doesn’t the fact that it’s a site run by Toby young that matches with the trump death cults world view say anything?
It's not just Toby Young you know? In fact, he barely contributes anymore. And his supporting cast is not crackpots. They're all highly experienced experts or doctors or scientists. The arguments are mostly backed up by data or scientific articles. I disagree with his political views, but this is beyond political boundaries and should not come into it.

Additionally, it's not scientific consensus. Many, many scientists disagree with the official position. Don't you think at the very least we should open up the scientific debate rather than the current closed shop we seem to have?

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32 minutes ago, leedsvaliant said:

It's not just Toby Young you know? In fact, he barely contributes anymore. And his supporting cast is not crackpots. They're all highly experienced experts or doctors or scientists. The arguments are mostly backed up by data or scientific articles. I disagree with his political views, but this is beyond political boundaries and should not come into it.

Additionally, it's not scientific consensus. Many, many scientists disagree with the official position. Don't you think at the very least we should open up the scientific debate rather than the current closed shop we seem to have?

He’s literally the editor.

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He’s literally the editor.
You're arguing about one man, whereas consensus on that site comes from a range of different sources. Surely we should allow some questioning of policy and government scientists consensus?

I find it amusing that lockdown zealots will always argue the small points but never address the excessive damage that lockdowns cause. They call us selfish, but I think actively supporting lockdown is selfish because it ultimately leads to much more death and hardship for future generations than a virus will ever do.

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