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12 minutes ago, geosname said:

From what I think I understand....... I could be wrong.

The vaccine does not prevent people contracting the virus, it triggers the immune system to fight, and reduce effects.

Some people who have contracted the virus have no or very limited effects.

If the above is correct the contagion rate, the positive tests recorded, create a slightly misleading picture.

It gives a picture of how fast it’s spreading, where the hot spots are and where hospitals are going to perhaps be overwhelmed. 

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THey are either correct or the BMJ and the head of the NHS are purposely misinforming the public as to the severity of the situation. FOr reasons you refuse to say. 
https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-major-incident-declared-in-london-due-to-hospital-pressure-12182329
Is this enough context? Or just more examples of the deep state trying to control us?
You're putting words into my mouth now. I've never mentioned deep state or any conspiracy. I'm simply stating that the statistics tell a different story to the one that they are painting. Look at the front of any newspaper over the last 20 years and the stories of overwhelmed hospitals are exactly the same as they are now. The difference this year is that 30% of staff are off at any one time and beds (in spite of being available ) are not being used due to distancing. I'm not saying it isn't a difficult situation but the hysteria from the media and those in the NHS is a little premature.

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There is a difference between a company deciding who can use their service and not being allowed freedom of speech. 
I agree, but unless the content is deliberately misleading or plain made up then this sets a dangerous precedent. You may not agree with the sceptical argument, but if it is backed up by data and reasoned argument then shutting it down is surpressing free speech.

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This virus has done a great job of highlighting the idiots. 
Tell me about it. Those that have submitted to government propoganda shows how easy it is to get people to submit to exactly what you tell them to do, irrespective of the consequences. There are examples throughout history and the nay sayers were vilified then as now.

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28 minutes ago, leedsvaliant said:

Tell me about it. Those that have submitted to government propoganda shows how easy it is to get people to submit to exactly what you tell them to do, irrespective of the consequences. There are examples throughout history and the nay sayers were vilified then as now.

It is not government propaganda that tells me this is serious but personal testimony from hospital workers. When there is propaganda there is always a motive behind it, do you care to spare some of your time to inform us sheep what that is in your opinion. 

 

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1 hour ago, Andyregs said:

It gives a picture of how fast it’s spreading, where the hot spots are and where hospitals are going to perhaps be overwhelmed. 

I agree it can,  although a bit rough around the edges. 

To create an accurate picture I would expect far more detail than daily infection rates. 

Numbers tested, ages, repeat tests etc...... it could be extremely informative to know if people who were tested positive got re-tested to confirm negative, the numbers and locations etc.

All the above, and more, could well be available to the scientists/experts.

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It is not government propaganda that tells me this is serious but personal testimony from hospital workers. When there is propaganda there is always a motive behind it, do you care to spare some of your time to inform us sheep what that is in your opinion. 
 
Undoubtedly there is extreme pressure in certain areas and nobody wants to see the NHS overwhelmed. I think this year has been compounded by a number of factors, distancing, lack of exposure to other viruses, staff shortages, people now becoming ill enough for hospital who had avoided it until now.

Ultimately, what this boils down to is whether you believe that locking people down is ever justified and whether ultimately the cure is worse than the disease. I think that's a reasonable debate to have.

I'm hopeful that the roll out of the vaccine will restore people's freedom withiut exception entirely but after whittys comments the other night I'm not so sure. Otherwise we've been sold a pup.

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35 minutes ago, leedsvaliant said:

Undoubtedly there is extreme pressure in certain areas and nobody wants to see the NHS overwhelmed. I think this year has been compounded by a number of factors, distancing, lack of exposure to other viruses, staff shortages, people now becoming ill enough for hospital who had avoided it until now.

Ultimately, what this boils down to is whether you believe that locking people down is ever justified and whether ultimately the cure is worse than the disease. I think that's a reasonable debate to have.

I'm hopeful that the roll out of the vaccine will restore people's freedom withiut exception entirely but after whittys comments the other night I'm not so sure. Otherwise we've been sold a pup.
 

A cursory look at the stats and how they coincide with lockdowns suggest they prevent what you say we want to avoid and that is the health service being overwhelmed.  No government especially one like this one backed by billionaires in the main want to prevent people from circulating unless there is no option.

We all enjoy freedom but I for one don`t want to cause the death of anyone by flouting the regulations or by being too precious to wear a mask when appropriate which a lot of right wing snowflakes have been mithering over.

Having said that I`m glad I don`t live in Derbyshire judging by the overreaction of the police there.

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A cursory look at the stats and how they coincide with lockdowns suggest they prevent what you say we want to avoid and that is the health service being overwhelmed.  No government especially one like this one backed by billionaires in the main want to prevent people from circulating unless there is no option.
We all enjoy freedom but I for one don`t want to cause the death of anyone by flouting the regulations or by being too precious to wear a mask when appropriate which a lot of right wing snowflakes have been mithering over.
Having said that I`m glad I don`t live in Derbyshire judging by the overreaction of the police there.
I think that's fair.

One thing I would say is that many analysts debate whether lockdown had anything to do with suppressing the virus. Infections were already coming down when it was implemented in March (classic Gompertz curve)and the Lancet studied several lockdowns throughout the world and showed no real effect on mortality.

I don't believe the government is doing anything nefarious and as you say, Torys would not destroy business on purpose. I just feel that we have some very weak, lazy politicians who do exactly what they are told by scientists on one side of the argument. Or even lazier, simply copy other countries.



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2 hours ago, leedsvaliant said:
4 hours ago, Andyregs said:
THey are either correct or the BMJ and the head of the NHS are purposely misinforming the public as to the severity of the situation. FOr reasons you refuse to say. 
https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-major-incident-declared-in-london-due-to-hospital-pressure-12182329
Is this enough context? Or just more examples of the deep state trying to control us?

You're putting words into my mouth now. I've never mentioned deep state or any conspiracy. I'm simply stating that the statistics tell a different story to the one that they are painting. Look at the front of any newspaper over the last 20 years and the stories of overwhelmed hospitals are exactly the same as they are now. The difference this year is that 30% of staff are off at any one time and beds (in spite of being available ) are not being used due to distancing. I'm not saying it isn't a difficult situation but the hysteria from the media and those in the NHS is a little premature.

Then tell me why you think the bmj and the boss of the nhs are purposely misleading the population?

2 hours ago, geosname said:

I agree it can,  although a bit rough around the edges. 

To create an accurate picture I would expect far more detail than daily infection rates. 

Numbers tested, ages, repeat tests etc...... it could be extremely informative to know if people who were tested positive got re-tested to confirm negative, the numbers and locations etc.

All the above, and more, could well be available to the scientists/experts.

I’m sure that data is available. But to give a broad idea of how the virus is spreading, amount of positive cases is an obvious starting point. I’m not sure what you’re arguing for here, but that’s not a new thing. 

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I’m sure that data is available. But to give a broad idea of how the virus is spreading, amount of positive cases is an obvious starting point. I’m not sure what you’re arguing for here, but that’s not a new thing. 
I don't think they are trying to mislead but I think their interpretation of the data is different to others. There's nothing nefarious, or deep state, or great reset going on here. It's simply that data can be used to suit both sides of the argument. In a few years we'll look back and see whether lockdowns were worth it, or whether it was as bad or worse than we thought at the time.

For now I think we all have to hope the government don't feck the vaccine roll out up like everything else. If they don't, then we should be back to complete normality by June, no masks, no social distancing, nothing closed, no limits on who you can meet and where. If it isn't, do you think it's right that people should question what the hell is going on? Because if we can't escape this hell through vaccine, then how can we?

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4 minutes ago, leedsvaliant said:

I don't think they are trying to mislead but I think their interpretation of the data is different to others. There's nothing nefarious, or deep state, or great reset going on here. It's simply that data can be used to suit both sides of the argument. In a few years we'll look back and see whether lockdowns were worth it, or whether it was as bad or worse than we thought at the time.

For now I think we all have to hope the government don't feck the vaccine roll out up like everything else. If they don't, then we should be back to complete normality by June, no masks, no social distancing, nothing closed, no limits on who you can meet and where. If it isn't, do you think it's right that people should question what the hell is going on? Because if we can't escape this hell through vaccine, then how can we?

But what ‘side’ is the bmj and nhs on if not trying to make sure people don’t die and the nhs isn’t overwhelmed. Their ‘interpretation’ is based on what is actually happening in the hospitals he runs. You can’t get anymore in context than that. 

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