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If its all propaganda, what’s the end game. Why are the government doing it. What are they getting from this? I’m as far from a supporter of the current government as you can get, but I can’t see how they benefit from this.
I agree, there is no advantage to the government. I don't buy into any conspiracy theories around a nee world order. I think it's got to a point where they're now terrified of being blamed for any death and each country has just copied what others have done.

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That’s the problem what measures work. People assume that the measures were therefore not needed. Lockdown saved a lot of lives and protected the nhs, but because the nhs wasn’t overburdened, and lockdown was a success, people start to think it therefore wasn’t needed. The only way these people will be convinced that lockdown was needed is if more people died, however that would then mean that it had failed. 
Chris Witty admitted that cases were starting to fall before the first lockdown. That suggests to me that this was nothing to do with a lockdown. Yes, a lockdown may have helped to keep the virus suppressed for a while but it's not a solution.

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I'm ultimately worried about the fact that people seem to have accepted this 'new normal '. Do you really want to have to lockdown every year 'just in case'. Do you really want to go to pubs and restaurants where you can't socialise with others and have to wear a mask to go to the toilet? Do you want to attend football matches where only limited numbers are allowed in? I'm concerned that the vaccine isn't the silver bullet that people seem to think it will be. It's already been hinted that these actions might want to be continued. What sort of life is that? I don't want to be a part of it, yet people just nod like dogs. If people were told to walk around blindfolded to stop the virus I'd swear they would.

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6 hours ago, leedsvaliant said:
9 hours ago, Andyregs said:
That’s the problem what measures work. People assume that the measures were therefore not needed. Lockdown saved a lot of lives and protected the nhs, but because the nhs wasn’t overburdened, and lockdown was a success, people start to think it therefore wasn’t needed. The only way these people will be convinced that lockdown was needed is if more people died, however that would then mean that it had failed. 

Chris Witty admitted that cases were starting to fall before the first lockdown.

Source?

6 hours ago, leedsvaliant said:

I'm ultimately worried about the fact that people seem to have accepted this 'new normal '. Do you really want to have to lockdown every year 'just in case'. Do you really want to go to pubs and restaurants where you can't socialise with others and have to wear a mask to go to the toilet? Do you want to attend football matches where only limited numbers are allowed in? I'm concerned that the vaccine isn't the silver bullet that people seem to think it will be. It's already been hinted that these actions might want to be continued. What sort of life is that? I don't want to be a part of it, yet people just nod like dogs. If people were told to walk around blindfolded to stop the virus I'd swear they would.

I realise that believing in conspiracy theories makes a person feel he has knowledge others don’t, but you say a lot without giving any foundation. What makes you think there will be a yearly lockdown. Pandemics aren’t a new thing. Why isn’t a vaccine a silver bullet? I realise you don’t want to be a part of it, and it’s a shame that trying to do something quite easy to protect others is such an inconvenience, but following scientific advice rather than conspiracy theorists from Facebook isn’t ‘nodding like dogs’. In the same way I do what my doctor tells me when I’m ill. I trust the experts, not the tin hat brigade.

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I realise that believing in conspiracy theories makes a person feel he has knowledge others don’t, but you say a lot without giving any foundation. What makes you think there will be a yearly lockdown. Pandemics aren’t a new thing. Why isn’t a vaccine a silver bullet? I realise you don’t want to be a part of it, and it’s a shame that trying to do something quite easy to protect others is such an inconvenience, but following scientific advice rather than conspiracy theorists from Facebook isn’t ‘nodding like dogs’. In the same way I do what my doctor tells me when I’m ill. I trust the experts, not the tin hat brigade.
This is the thing, anyone that questions the official narrative is seen as a nutcase or monster. Such has been the effectiveness of the government psychological science.

I don't get these views off Facebook or YouTube, but off serious, experienced and clever scientists and experts such as Henegan, Gupta and Yeadon. They are equally (and moreso than most of SAGE) qualified and experienced in their assessment of the situation but for some reason nobody wants to listen.

My fear is that the government has set a precedent now. If they believe these actions work for Coronavirus, then why not flu? Or the next 'deadly' disease? Or let's keep masks on every time we go anywhere public for fear we might give a cold to someone?

I sincerely hope that the vaccine will stop ALL of these restrictions but the language I hear suggests otherwise. Again, people will go along with it until they realise it is too late.

I'll dig the quote out from Whitty, he said it in a commons select committee. The same happened in the November lockdown, cases were already coming down way before the impact of a lockdown.

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3 minutes ago, Nofinikea said:

Just to be fair here, how do you know they won't use lockdowns more often now they know they can?

Why would they? If anything the government have been reluctant to go far enough. Just give me one sensible reason why the government would use lockdowns now ‘just because they can’, then your point will have more weight, otherwise, yes it does come off as a bit of a crackpot conspiracy. Despite all this talk, I’ve yet to hear any anti lock down person give a reason for it apart from crackpot 5g style nonsense. The only reason Leedsvaliant has given is ‘they don’t want to look bad’.

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Why would they? If anything the government have been reluctant to go far enough. Just give me one sensible reason why the government would use lockdowns now ‘just because they can’, then your point will have more weight, otherwise, yes it does come off as a bit of a crackpot conspiracy. Despite all this talk, I’ve yet to hear any anti lock down person give a reason for it apart from crackpot 5g style nonsense. The only reason Leedsvaliant has given is ‘they don’t want to look bad’.
I don't think they're doing it for any nefarious reasons. I think they have been genuinely led by one line of opinion and to detract from that now would be seen as weak.

They have the potential to continue or reuse these restrictions as they genuinely believe that they work and they don't consider the implications. Hancock already talked about how some of these measures could work with the flu. They've set a precedent and people are so compliant they'll just accept it.

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53 minutes ago, Nofinikea said:

So you can hyperthetically argue that they won't but anybody hyperthetically arguing that they could needs to provide evidence.

You don't know, I dont know, none of us do.  But you seem to think you are backed up by facts but you aren't, you are backed up by best guesses because nobody as yet has looked at the long term effects of lockdowns.

Do you think we are losing our sense of mortality?  Genuine question.

It seems to me that we are getting a bit skewed on it.  We must accept that people die and when they reach a certain age they are vulnerable to all sorts of things that will kill them but make younger people a bit offside, not just covid.  

We don't know if lockdowns work, it seems that they haven't done much good all over western countries where freedom is the corner stone.  They seem to have worked in China etc where they have little freedom anyway.  We have no real comparison data only a hyperthetical "it would have been worse" argument.  Well again, had we not locked down in the nicer weather, would more of us have got it and would we now be putting less pressure on the NHS during an already busy time of year?

These are all valid questions and debates to be had.  Maybe, we should have just accepted that a larger than usual number of vulnerable folk will die?  Maybe?  Have we saved many by the measures we have taken?  We don't know do we?  Those that have isolated properly, have been saved but that didn't require the rest of us to stop dead.  It required them to take there own decision and risk...  my parents have not been through the door nor had anybody through the door since March!  They won't until its over.  I know others who have "chanced it".  Its up to them surely as to how much they want to protect themselves?  

Again, these are all valid questions and debates but some are to busy being "right" to see the alternative view.

I happen to understand the lockdown point of view too.  We seemingly had no other tools and it would have taken a brave person to just tell a nation that we have to accept your mortality.   I also understand  the argument around schools on both sides.  How much damage has it actually done to education?  What effect will this have on the nation and the individual longer term and is that worth sacrificing for the sake of people at the other end of life?

Again, its a valid debate but I am a monster for even considering "letting" people die.  Hence why I think we are losing sight of what mortality is.

A lot of words to not answer my question. If you make an extraordinary claim (the government will continue to lockdown the nation in the future), you have to at least give a reasonable reason. Saying ‘you can’t prove they won’t’ is just nonsense. That line of argument can be used to justify any crackpot claim.
And yes ‘letting people die’ is a horrific mind set. Whether old, vulnerable or not. Without the lockdown and furlough, many people can’t lock themselves away from their job through choice. The just get in with life brigade are basically saying these people are collateral damage.

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So you can hyperthetically argue that they won't but anybody hyperthetically arguing that they could needs to provide evidence.
You don't know, I dont know, none of us do.  But you seem to think you are backed up by facts but you aren't, you are backed up by best guesses because nobody as yet has looked at the long term effects of lockdowns.
Do you think we are losing our sense of mortality?  Genuine question.
It seems to me that we are getting a bit skewed on it.  We must accept that people die and when they reach a certain age they are vulnerable to all sorts of things that will kill them but make younger people a bit offside, not just covid.  
We don't know if lockdowns work, it seems that they haven't done much good all over western countries where freedom is the corner stone.  They seem to have worked in China etc where they have little freedom anyway.  We have no real comparison data only a hyperthetical "it would have been worse" argument.  Well again, had we not locked down in the nicer weather, would more of us have got it and would we now be putting less pressure on the NHS during an already busy time of year?
These are all valid questions and debates to be had.  Maybe, we should have just accepted that a larger than usual number of vulnerable folk will die?  Maybe?  Have we saved many by the measures we have taken?  We don't know do we?  Those that have isolated properly, have been saved but that didn't require the rest of us to stop dead.  It required them to take there own decision and risk...  my parents have not been through the door nor had anybody through the door since March!  They won't until its over.  I know others who have "chanced it".  Its up to them surely as to how much they want to protect themselves?  
Again, these are all valid questions and debates but some are to busy being "right" to see the alternative view.
I happen to understand the lockdown point of view too.  We seemingly had no other tools and it would have taken a brave person to just tell a nation that we have to accept your mortality.   I also understand  the argument around schools on both sides.  How much damage has it actually done to education?  What effect will this have on the nation and the individual longer term and is that worth sacrificing for the sake of people at the other end of life?
Again, its a valid debate but I am a monster for even considering "letting" people die.  Hence why I think we are losing sight of what mortality is.
I think all those questions are valid and never seem to be answered. The prevailing attitude seems to be to protect people from the virus whatever the cost. Is that the right attitude? In the long term?

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A lot of words to not answer my question. If you make an extraordinary claim (the government will continue to lockdown the nation in the future), you have to at least give a reasonable reason. Saying ‘you can’t prove they won’t’ is just nonsense. That line of argument can be used to justify any crackpot claim.
And yes ‘letting people die’ is a horrific mind set. Whether old, vulnerable or not. Without the lockdown and furlough, many people can’t lock themselves away from their job through choice. The just get in with life brigade are basically saying these people are collateral damage.
I don't think anybody wants to let people die but it's more the persective on mortality that's been lost. I don't want people to die from a myriad of things but they do...particularly when 80+ . The current tactic seems to place Covid above all else, which I don't think is right.

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A lot of words to not answer my question. If you make an extraordinary claim (the government will continue to lockdown the nation in the future), you have to at least give a reasonable reason. Saying ‘you can’t prove they won’t’ is just nonsense. That line of argument can be used to justify any crackpot claim.
And yes ‘letting people die’ is a horrific mind set. Whether old, vulnerable or not. Without the lockdown and furlough, many people can’t lock themselves away from their job through choice. The just get in with life brigade are basically saying these people are collateral damage.
You also know full well that those in the vulnerable category have been able to shield or work from home as much as they can. Those of working age under 60 with no health problems have more chance of dying in a car accident. 370 odd I believe.

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5 minutes ago, leedsvaliant said:
12 minutes ago, Andyregs said:
A lot of words to not answer my question. If you make an extraordinary claim (the government will continue to lockdown the nation in the future), you have to at least give a reasonable reason. Saying ‘you can’t prove they won’t’ is just nonsense. That line of argument can be used to justify any crackpot claim.
And yes ‘letting people die’ is a horrific mind set. Whether old, vulnerable or not. Without the lockdown and furlough, many people can’t lock themselves away from their job through choice. The just get in with life brigade are basically saying these people are collateral damage.

You also know full well that those in the vulnerable category have been able to shield or work from home as much as they can. Those of working age under 60 with no health problems have more chance of dying in a car accident. 370 odd I believe.

Yet those vulnerable people also live with people who have to go to work. 

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10 minutes ago, leedsvaliant said:
14 minutes ago, Andyregs said:
A lot of words to not answer my question. If you make an extraordinary claim (the government will continue to lockdown the nation in the future), you have to at least give a reasonable reason. Saying ‘you can’t prove they won’t’ is just nonsense. That line of argument can be used to justify any crackpot claim.
And yes ‘letting people die’ is a horrific mind set. Whether old, vulnerable or not. Without the lockdown and furlough, many people can’t lock themselves away from their job through choice. The just get in with life brigade are basically saying these people are collateral damage.

I don't think anybody wants to let people die but it's more the persective on mortality that's been lost. I don't want people to die from a myriad of things but they do...particularly when 80+ . The current tactic seems to place Covid above all else, which I don't think is right.

It’s quite clear some want to let people die. For some being able to go to the pub is more important though.

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It’s quite clear some want to let people die. For some being able to go to the pub is more important though.
That's horrendous. It's not about going to the pub. It's about missed cancer screenings, people too frightened to go to hospital and dying at home, millions of unemployed and the knock on effects of that (including poverty and starvation), millions of businesses gone, never to return, old people left to die afraid and alone in nursing homes, lack of a proper funeral for thousands, education disrupted and potential irreversible damage, a shattering of everything that makes life worth living, 3rd world starvation which could run into millions of deaths, horrendous treatment of those nearing the end of their life and dying alone in hospital. And they call us selfish!

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