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26 minutes ago, leedsvaliant said:

masks play a very small role in proceedings in my view, so I don't want to get bogged down in that debate

 

27 minutes ago, leedsvaliant said:

it's not a big part of the argument for me, so there's no point debating it

"I refuse to begin to even acknowledge evidence that contradicts my misinformed world view so don't supply any evidence as if I don't like it, it's not true"

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"I refuse to begin to even acknowledge evidence that contradicts my misinformed world view so don't supply any evidence as if I don't like it, it's not true"
But that's not what I said and you're talking to me as though I am anti mask. I was simply pointing out that there are arguments for and against and that I don't wish to debate masks as I don't feel that they play a significant part in the overall argument.

I'd rather debate the bigger stuff such as this whole madness.

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1 minute ago, leedsvaliant said:

But that's not what I said and you're talking to me as though I am anti mask. I was simply pointing out that there are arguments for and against and that I don't wish to debate masks as I don't feel that they play a significant part in the overall argument.

I'd rather debate the bigger stuff such as this whole madness.

You do realise we can still see what you wrote?

I tell you what I think is mad. People treating this like it's the plague or Ebola and willingly accepting the wearing of masks (very little evidence they do anything but we won't go there),”

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You do realise we can still see what you wrote?
”I tell you what I think is mad. People treating this like it's the plague or Ebola and willingly accepting the wearing of masks (very little evidence they do anything but we won't go there),”
Yes and there is very little evidence in terms of proper wide scale studies. Please stop concentrating on the small stuff. I'm not anti mask but I'm I'm yet to be convinced on their effectiveness against this 'deadly ' disease.

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47 minutes ago, leedsvaliant said:
50 minutes ago, Andyregs said:
You do realise we can still see what you wrote?
”I tell you what I think is mad. People treating this like it's the plague or Ebola and willingly accepting the wearing of masks (very little evidence they do anything but we won't go there),”

Yes and there is very little evidence in terms of proper wide scale studies. Please stop concentrating on the small stuff. I'm not anti mask but I'm I'm yet to be convinced on their effectiveness against this 'deadly ' disease.

So I’m looking at Oxford university, Cambridge, the lancet, a few other journals. What are you basing your opinion on that they aren’t effective. It may be small stuff to you, but the evidence suggest they save lives. It will also put your other opinions into context. 

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https://www.thelancet.com/action/showPdf?pii=S2213-2600(20)30352-0

In summary, the current best evidence includes the possibility of important relative and absolute benefits of wearing a facemask. Depending on the pandemic situation in a given geographical setting, the desirable consequences of wearing a facemask may or may not outweigh the undesirable consequences. These considerations should influence policy makers’ recommendations starting with the involvement of the relevant stakeholders. In highly populated areas that have high infection rates—eg, USA, India, Brazil, or South Africa—the use of masks will probably outweigh any potential downsides. I

 

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https://www.thelancet.com/action/showPdf?pii=S2213-2600(20)30352-0
In summary, the current best evidence includes the possibility of important relative and absolute benefits of wearing a facemask. Depending on the pandemic situation in a given geographical setting, the desirable consequences of wearing a facemask may or may not outweigh the undesirable consequences. These considerations should influence policy makers’ recommendations starting with the involvement of the relevant stakeholders. In highly populated areas that have high infection rates—eg, USA, India, Brazil, or South Africa—the use of masks will probably outweigh any potential downsides. I
 
So in summary like I was saying. They're probably more worth wearing than not but it's not clear cut?

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And you know this do you? Because you've seen it on the BBC? I've got news for you...people are always very sick in hospitals every single year at this time, hospitals are always under pressure every single year at this time. People die in significant amounts every single year at this time. 2 or 3 years ago around 50,000 people died because of a bad flu outbreak (barely reported).

I'm not denying it's a particular nasty virus (particularly to those over the age of 80), but even then it's not a death sentence and well over 90% of people will survive.

Lockdowns are the definition of insanity. Let's use the same tactic which will probably costs 3 or 4 times as many lives as it saves. Not to mention the mental health impact, the missed cancer diagnosis, the thousands of old people with dementia left to die alone and scared, the people too scared to go to hospital and dying as a result, the madness at funerals, the impact on children's education, the impact on people's lives and livelihoods, the impact on the arts, the impact on pubs and restaurants, the impact on the football club that we love. But if it just saves one life....
Incidentally, lockdown zealots always seem to pick on a small point to try and win the argument rather than looking at the bigger picture. What do you think about the above?

The government have played a blinder in the psychological/propoganda stakes, including most of SAGE being made up of psychological scientists rather than epidemiological scientists and creating the classic Goebbelsesque divide and conquer whereby anyone who questions the official narrative and data is seen as some sort of crazy monster who must want to kill all old people. I've seen people getting verbally and physically abused because they aren't standing 2 metres from someone else. The government must be delighted at this behaviour.

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And you know this do you? Because you've seen it on the BBC? I've got news for you...people are always very sick in hospitals every single year at this time, hospitals are always under pressure every single year at this time. People die in significant amounts every single year at this time. 2 or 3 years ago around 50,000 people died because of a bad flu outbreak (barely reported).

I'm not denying it's a particular nasty virus (particularly to those over the age of 80), but even then it's not a death sentence and well over 90% of people will survive.

Lockdowns are the definition of insanity. Let's use the same tactic which will probably costs 3 or 4 times as many lives as it saves. Not to mention the mental health impact, the missed cancer diagnosis, the thousands of old people with dementia left to die alone and scared, the people too scared to go to hospital and dying as a result, the madness at funerals, the impact on children's education, the impact on people's lives and livelihoods, the impact on the arts, the impact on pubs and restaurants, the impact on the football club that we love. But if it just saves one life....
You say the hospitals are always full this time of year.


The hospitals are full this year despite most people staying at home, the roads being quieter, pubs and nightclubs being shut, people social distancing & minimal sports activities taking place. Plus numerous other activities/measures.


Imagine what they would be like if most people weren't taking measures to not catch covid and other viral diseases that usually fill up hospitals and taking part in activities that often cause injuries.

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5 minutes ago, wotsyobeef said:

You say the hospitals are always full this time of year.


The hospitals are full this year despite most people staying at home, the roads being quieter, pubs and nightclubs being shut, people social distancing & minimal sports activities taking place. Plus numerous other activities/measures.


Imagine what they would be like if most people weren't taking measures to not catch covid and other viral diseases that usually fill up hospitals and taking part in activities that often cause injuries.

That’s the problem what measures work. People assume that the measures were therefore not needed. Lockdown saved a lot of lives and protected the nhs, but because the nhs wasn’t overburdened, and lockdown was a success, people start to think it therefore wasn’t needed. The only way these people will be convinced that lockdown was needed is if more people died, however that would then mean that it had failed. 

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57 minutes ago, leedsvaliant said:


The government have played a blinder in the psychological/propoganda stakes,

If its all propaganda, what’s the end game. Why are the government doing it. What are they getting from this? I’m as far from a supporter of the current government as you can get, but I can’t see how they benefit from this.

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15 minutes ago, sunny boslem said:

Should teachers be exposed to the children who’s parents are letting them get on with things and not making them stick to lockdown rules 

People have to wear masks to go to the doctors. My wife went to the dentist and you had to wait outside until the other patient came out. You have to wear masks and queue up to go into shops. But the virus must know not to spread in a room of 30 people who don’t wear masks. 
the governments own data show that the virus is spreading most in secondary school age people.

 

5B1FDB7A-404E-4AD9-8E2F-5154759B1FF6.jpeg

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12 hours ago, leedsvaliant said:

Piers Corbyn doesn't help the cause along with a few others.

What you've fallen into the trap of here is again believing everything you read without context.

This scaremongering about hospitals being full is at best disingenuous. Somebody had compiled front pages of the Guardian over the last few years and it showed that this headline comes up every year and in some years they even had fridges outside hospitals. I don't seem to recall us locking ourselves away then.

There was also some nurse on saying her children's ward was full of kids with Covid. When pushed further, several doctors called this out as nonsense.

There are bound to be more people in hospital now than there were in April, we are in the middle of winter.

This schools thing is also ridiculous. Has there been one example anywhere of a teacher catching Covid from a pupil and dying?

The trouble is people are controlled by emotions and not facts, which is why they switch off from anything which goes against the religion of Covid. Many have seen it all as a jolly jape, whereby they sit and watch Netflix at home, whilst getting their food delivered and on virtually full pay. Nothing more exciting has ever happened to them. Once the financial reality bites and affects them, you'll see a change.

We've lost complete context of danger and risk. I'll leave you with a fact...last year 99.87% (and probably more if we get into the debate of 'with '/'of')of the UK population didn't die from Covid.

A very good friend of mine have a daughter who holds quite a senior position at the Royal Stoke, she was working on the Covid wards and she says last week the hospital was full to the brim with Covid patients on ventilators, is she lying ?

This is a dangerous disease it's claimed alot of the public and it's you who is being led by emotion and not facts, if you have someone close to you who loses their life and I sincerely hope you dont; you will realise your talking rubbish.

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20 minutes ago, Andyregs said:

People have to wear masks to go to the doctors. My wife went to the dentist and you had to wait outside until the other patient came out. You have to wear masks and queue up to go into shops. But the virus must know not to spread in a room of 30 people who don’t wear masks. 
the governments own data show that the virus is spreading most in secondary school age people.

 

5B1FDB7A-404E-4AD9-8E2F-5154759B1FF6.jpeg

I’m not on about masks mate 

I’m on about the small gangs of young lads walking around with no care for social distancing 

Fair enough it’s a small percentage of younger people but should a teacher be expected to turn up Monday morning and teach these kids after prob staying in themselves all weekend 

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Just now, sunny boslem said:

I’m not on about masks mate 

I’m on about the small gangs of young lads walking around with no care for social distancing 

Fair enough it’s a small percentage of younger people but should a teacher be expected to turn up Monday morning and teach these kids after prob staying in themselves all weekend 

I know, just adding to the different standards expected.

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A very good friend of mine have a daughter who holds quite a senior position at the Royal Stoke, she was working on the Covid wards and she says last week the hospital was full to the brim with Covid patients on ventilators, is she lying ?
This is a dangerous disease it's claimed alot of the public and it's you who is being led by emotion and not facts, if you have someone close to you who loses their life and I sincerely hope you dont; you will realise your talking rubbish.
Mmm. I've just read an article that is taken from the NHS England statistics website. It states that average bed occupancy during December was 76000. In December 2019 it was 96000. I'm sure there are pressure points and our local hospital is not a good example as it takes patients from a massive area, but it seems the problem lies more with a lack of preparation, beds and staff.

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