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Looks like Wales will be issuing ID-style covid vaccine cards. 

 

I'm as hopeful as the next person about the vaccine but I cannot accept any form of mandatory vaccinations and that includes the Government enabling the private sector shunning of people who choose to wait or not take it at all. This is the next constitutional crisis facing this country.

 

There should be no roll out of "proof" of vaccination in my opinion. If people want to obtain a doctors note then fine, their choice, but any form of ID card will only serve to force people into compliance when it should be a basic freedom of UK citizens to choose whether we inject anything into our arms.

 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, geosname said:

From thailands perspective lockdowns work.

No tourism until second quarter of 2021 they say without special visas (and the reams of red tape that accompanies it) and controled isolation..... which entails being picked up at the airport and escorted to a designated hotel, being locked in the room for 10 days and 4 days in the hotel confines, at the travellers expense (£1,200 approx)

Most international flights are repatriations. Internal flights have resumed in reduced numbers. Restrictions on traveling between districts have been lifted.

4,000 cases..... 60 deaths.

 

Hopefully things get better, i'm eyeing up a trip to Asia later next year or early 2022 and I'd love to see some more of Thailand.

 

Different climates different cultures different people could all explain why Thailand has dealt with it better though. I'm not convinced there's any real evidence of lockdowns having a significant impact. Even the WHO don't think they should be used as a primary method of controlling the virus but as a way of stalling for time. 

 

And the question remains about the true cost of lockdowns.

 

The Government estimated that 200k lives could be lost as a result of the first lockdown, but that figure isn't reported on or questioned in the media. It's nearly 3 times higher than our covid deaths. The more jobs are lost the more lives are lost. I saw some stats on missed appointments in the NHS this week that are truly scary. Millions of missed appointments, hundreds of thousands of missed elective overnight admissions. 

 

Glaring holes in Government data, they use the PCR test figures in Liverpool to base decisions which we now estimate to be returning 5x the positive cases as other test options. Hospital admission data v hospital patient data suggests that 75% of people in hospital with covid, either aren't receiving treatment for covid (ie they're in hospital for unrelated reasons but happen to have tested positive) or have caught the virus in hospital and go on to require further treatment for it. Yet it's not reported, we're led to believe that community transmission is driving spikes. 

 

Of course all this could be wrong because it was based on ONS data. And there's elements of guess work/assumptions whichever way you look at it. The lack of willingness from the Government to publish clear facts and figures backing up their decisions is a red flag though.

 

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Similar sized populations,  England`s problem was  air travel, Ski holiday makers returning to  London posh areas causing the virus to spread resulting in high rates for London February/March.  Lax control since then on travellers compared to other countries.
Well who would have thought it, Londoner's living in posh areas spread Covid what about Cheltenham Liverpool and Crufts ?

WHO need to know about this, cull the rich and kill Covid
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7 hours ago, Regal Beagle said:

Hopefully things get better, i'm eyeing up a trip to Asia later next year or early 2022 and I'd love to see some more of Thailand.

 

Different climates different cultures different people could all explain why Thailand has dealt with it better though. I'm not convinced there's any real evidence of lockdowns having a significant impact. Even the WHO don't think they should be used as a primary method of controlling the virus but as a way of stalling for time. 

 

And the question remains about the true cost of lockdowns.

 

The Government estimated that 200k lives could be lost as a result of the first lockdown, but that figure isn't reported on or questioned in the media. It's nearly 3 times higher than our covid deaths. The more jobs are lost the more lives are lost. I saw some stats on missed appointments in the NHS this week that are truly scary. Millions of missed appointments, hundreds of thousands of missed elective overnight admissions. 

 

Glaring holes in Government data, they use the PCR test figures in Liverpool to base decisions which we now estimate to be returning 5x the positive cases as other test options. Hospital admission data v hospital patient data suggests that 75% of people in hospital with covid, either aren't receiving treatment for covid (ie they're in hospital for unrelated reasons but happen to have tested positive) or have caught the virus in hospital and go on to require further treatment for it. Yet it's not reported, we're led to believe that community transmission is driving spikes. 

 

Of course all this could be wrong because it was based on ONS data. And there's elements of guess work/assumptions whichever way you look at it. The lack of willingness from the Government to publish clear facts and figures backing up their decisions is a red flag though.

 

Lockdowns work. There is no argument about it. They save lives, yes. They also prevent the spread of infection, which in turn prevents people who would have got sick from getting sick; those that, even if they would have recovered, might have had long-term health effects. That effect can't yet be calculated, on a human, or indeed an economic scale.

I can tell you this because I was locked down for nearly 3 months. And we have been officially COVID free (0 new cases, 0 deaths) for more than 1 month, and things are returning to normal. There may still be some out in the community somewhere, but 

Lockdowns are unpleasant, they are damaging. The UK should still be in one until January. The single biggest failure is of the government to implement a system of lockdowns properly. To understand, to communicate, to explain, to show leadership. They do none of it, which is why the UK has been lurching from one disaster to the next all year. It's not a coincidence.

There is an enormous amount of work to be done to repair the economic and social damage done by lockdowns. But all these people bleating about the very real issues related to insecure work, mental health, social services have been f*cking nowhere on them until it suited their current argument (note - I am not aiming that at you specifically!) And they likely won't say a word about it again, because they have no interest in them. Wait until the debate starts around funding, or a universal basic income.

 

Also RB, just in case you don't realise, this is how your post reads (to me).

* Government data support my argument here.

* Next - there is glaring holes in government data, when it suits my argument here.

* Lots of people have missed hospital appointments (true) that they could have had, because

a) people in hospital don't have COVID, but are already there

b) people in hospital do have COVID and got it when they were there, even though people there don't have it...

 

 

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21 hours ago, Howjy04 said:

Captain Hindsight has been promoted to General Indecision.😂

Hindsight only looks good after bad decisions have been made, such as ignoring the advice to lockdown earlier and shorter. Which I think you will find Starmer advocated as soon as the evidence became available- about 1 month after Boris ignored it. 

 

Edited by bycars rob
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56 minutes ago, bycars rob said:

Hindsight only looks good after bad decisions have been made, such as ignoring the advice to lockdown earlier and shorter. Which I think you will find Starmer advocated as soon as the evidence became available- about 1 month after Boris ignored it. 

 

Private Rob,get to the back of the queue for the vaccine!!.Will General Indecision be there with you?He has a habit of abstaining I think you’ll find.

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1 hour ago, bycars rob said:

Hindsight only looks good after bad decisions have been made, such as ignoring the advice to lockdown earlier and shorter. Which I think you will find Starmer advocated as soon as the evidence became available- about 1 month after Boris ignored it. 

 

Starmer is leader of the opposition, not his job to support a bumbler who learns lines and churns them out haphazardly for TV clips. If he had voted against  the Tiered lockdown  and the motion failed  the country would have been in  more chaos. 

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I am not happy with how the Tories have handled Covid from the start. But today I feel somewhat sorry for Doris. What do the Tories rebels want in place of Lockdown? We have no alternative as the Welsh found out yesterday, give this disease slack and it spreads again. As it will do here after Xmas. It is ok feeling sorry for Pubs, but this is one of the main places it is spreading.
People are dangerously ill and dying, we owe it to Front line workers to lockdown, and control the spread.


Wow, so many innacuracies in one post, I don't know where to start.

We have alternatives to lockdown but they've been completely ignored and disregarded by the government scientists, in spite of being backed by evidence and making the most sense.

Pubs are not the main places of spreading, not even close. I think it was around 3% of infections came from hospitality. The main places of spread have been hospitals and some universities. People are being tested irrelevant of what they go into hospital for and going into the figures. They then die within 28 days and go into the figures for Covid, even if they had terminal cancer. The dodgy PCR test is massively inflating those testing positive, meaning even people who haven't got any trace of the disease are being counted as a Covid admission or death.

Some people are dangerously ill and dying, but not dramatically more so than any other year at this time. People forget that hospitals are in crisis every year.

Once again it smacks of people swallowing everything they are told without doing research. It's just lazy.

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Lockdowns work. There is no argument about it. They save lives, yes. They also prevent the spread of infection, which in turn prevents people who would have got sick from getting sick; those that, even if they would have recovered, might have had long-term health effects. That effect can't yet be calculated, on a human, or indeed an economic scale.
I can tell you this because I was locked down for nearly 3 months. And we have been officially COVID free (0 new cases, 0 deaths) for more than 1 month, and things are returning to normal. There may still be some out in the community somewhere, but 
Lockdowns are unpleasant, they are damaging. The UK should still be in one until January. The single biggest failure is of the government to implement a system of lockdowns properly. To understand, to communicate, to explain, to show leadership. They do none of it, which is why the UK has been lurching from one disaster to the next all year. It's not a coincidence.
There is an enormous amount of work to be done to repair the economic and social damage done by lockdowns. But all these people bleating about the very real issues related to insecure work, mental health, social services have been f*cking nowhere on them until it suited their current argument (note - I am not aiming that at you specifically!) And they likely won't say a word about it again, because they have no interest in them. Wait until the debate starts around funding, or a universal basic income.
 
Also RB, just in case you don't realise, this is how your post reads (to me).
* Government data support my argument here.
* Next - there is glaring holes in government data, when it suits my argument here.
* Lots of people have missed hospital appointments (true) that they could have had, because
a) people in hospital don't have COVID, but are already there
b) people in hospital do have COVID and got it when they were there, even though people there don't have it...
 
 
I fundamentally disagree. Lockdowns don't work because of the collateral damage, not just in terms of livelihoods, but lives in the long term. It's ok saving one life now but causing 50 deaths down the road as a direct result is ok is it?

Many of these places like New Zealand think they have done wonderfully, but are they going to live as outcasts forever? They rely heavily on tourism and if they continue to decimate it in this way, they're going to cause way more damage than any virus.

I implore you to listen to Mike Yeadon. He has a real understanding of the situation. He believes that the pandemic was real and dangerous but was over in June. We're now living through a casedemic, where essentially lots of cases are wrong and then in turn wrongly labelled as a Covid death. Look at the ONS, deaths and hospitalisations are nothing out of the ordinary and have been this way since May. Eventually people will twig but they've all been so brainwashed about a 'deadly' virus that it's hard to talk people out of the fear.

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My other slight concern is that people seem to think that once the vaccine has taken hold then we will go completely back to normal.

It's been more than hinted at that social distancing, mask wearing and all the other theatre would still continue indefinitely. I'm not so sure people will be as accepting of these measures after the vaccine has been rolled out, when they realise it's not the silver bullet they were sold.

Van Tam got quickly shut down by Doris for suggesting as much yesterday.

I'm also amazed that anybody would accept a vaccine ID card idea. It's like something out of a horror film.

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I must echo what leedsvaliant is saying. Below is a link. It is the ONS figures for deaths by date of death and and not date reported which gives a far more accurate view of how many people are dying "with covid." It appears that the number of Covid associated deaths has peaked for the autumn but may be too early to say. I think that as a result of the PCR testing they may increase again in the new year and especially February which is usually the worst month for respiratory deaths.

I feel we must awake to how disproportionate our response to this illness has been. We must realise that if the PCR testing was not available the pandemic would disappear. The deaths due to the lockdown will not though as in missed cancer, heart and stroke referrals plus suicide.

Link here: https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/deaths

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33 minutes ago, leedsvaliant said:

My other slight concern is that people seem to think that once the vaccine has taken hold then we will go completely back to normal.

It's been more than hinted at that social distancing, mask wearing and all the other theatre would still continue indefinitely. I'm not so sure people will be as accepting of these measures after the vaccine has been rolled out, when they realise it's not the silver bullet they were sold.

Van Tam got quickly shut down by Doris for suggesting as much yesterday.

I'm also amazed that anybody would accept a vaccine ID card idea. It's like something out of a horror film.

The various vaccines are very promising, emergency approval has been given to the German one. But the real test is in the real world, how long will they be effective ?  How often required.? What  %  of the population require them. Will take a few months, perhaps Spring is optimistic.  Nor are we as a nation in large numbers used to wearing face masks to avoid flu and smog.   If a vaccine ID card will get you on a plane or in a football ground maybe acceptable.

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