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1 hour ago, WV said:

 

How can you do that from 2m away? Unless I've been doing it wrong. 

I was referring to the legality not the actuality. 

Although you could claim you were testing your eyesight?...... commonly called a "Cummings" 😊

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35 minutes ago, geosname said:

I was referring to the legality not the actuality. 

Although you could claim you were testing your eyesight?...... commonly called a "Cummings" 😊

When the Tracking and Tracing Starts

The S***ging stops.😉

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28 minutes ago, Nofinikea said:

I get why our infection rate might be greater, I get why that might differ but death ratios should be about the same shouldnt they?   Maybe even higher in countries that dont have adequate health care?  We have never been overwhelmed and yet have the highest deaths....  does that not make anybody wonder about the reporting reliability of other countries, even in the EU?

I think, and it's only a feeling, we have been particularly transparent with out numbers and possible even attributed many deaths to Covid that others might not have done.

I simply dont believe the countries who claim 57 when other countries are in 1000s or tens of....  do Thailand mean 57 deaths that matter?

Germany don’t count deaths as Covid if the person had health underlying conditions.Italy and I think Spain don’t count care homes.Excess death figures are probably the best guide.I too think we have been too honest with figures compared with other countries.Until there is a one fits all there will be discrepancies.Russia? Honestly? China? Honestly?Thailand can’t possibly know how many people have Covid in their country.They haven’t done that much testing.The UK are now in the top group of testers in the world.

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Excess deaths is the best guide  as our PM stated and as the FT has shown ours are bad. On the latest figures about 60,000 excess deaths in the UK and per head of population second at 891 per million compared to Spain at 921. 

By contrast Germany have a fraction at about 50 

I agree that you can discount Russia and China and I don`t think the FT included them in their list. 

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1 hour ago, Howjy04 said:

Germany don’t count deaths as Covid if the person had health underlying conditions.Italy and I think Spain don’t count care homes.Excess death figures are probably the best guide.

Our excess deaths compared to those of Germany are a scary scary read

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38 minutes ago, Iron Curtain said:

Our excess deaths compared to those of Germany are a scary scary read

Ours is bad ,IC.I read something the other day where a German scientist reckoned Germany has had at least 10 times as many cases as reported.1,800,000 as opposed to 180,000.Not sure if we are at that level?I check Worldometer for figures,normally.Some of the figures given by Governments I’d say are slightly dubious.Ive always said we are too honest for our own good.Who would want to win the European championship at this ?

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16 minutes ago, Howjy04 said:

Ours is bad ,IC.I read something the other day where a German scientist reckoned Germany has had at least 10 times as many cases as reported.1,800,000 as opposed to 180,000.Not sure if we are at that level?I check Worldometer for figures,normally.Some of the figures given by Governments I’d say are slightly dubious.Ive always said we are too honest for our own good.Who would want to win the European championship at this ?

I highly doubt that number.

I also think its a very dangerous game to assume that we, Great Britain, bastion of good morals and honesty throughout our history, are the only ones being truthful. We're no morally superior to any other nation.

And remember, we went weeks without declaring care home deaths. To hold us up as some pillar of honesty in a lying international community is not correct, in my view,

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On 31/05/2020 at 19:36, Coyney Valiant said:

Make up lies . Did he not go 260 mile up to Durham , did he not go 30 mile to Barnard castle on his wife’s sorry sick wife’s birthday with his 4 year old son   —— I must apologise I didn’t realise this was all a pack of lies 

The majority of accusations made were untrue or based on evidence at all:

 

-didn't mix with his extended family

-didn't stay in his parent's house

-family didn't care for his son

-he wasn't ill when he travelled

-he had a valid, reasonable and lawful excuse for travelling to Durham initially

-he didn't return to durham 5 days later to visit bluebells

 

The conclusion was decided before the facts were known.

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5 minutes ago, Regal Beagle said:

The majority of accusations made were untrue or based on evidence at all:

 

-didn't mix with his extended family

-didn't stay in his parent's house

-family didn't care for his son

-he wasn't ill when he travelled

-he had a valid, reasonable and lawful excuse for travelling to Durham initially

-he didn't return to durham 5 days later to visit bluebells

 

The conclusion was decided before the facts were known.

Whilst this is all a correct, separate point, in that some false allegations were made, you can at least admit that the trip to Barnard Castle was at least questionable, possibly illegal, and a man of his standing deserves scrutiny of his decision to take the trip?

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10 minutes ago, Joe B said:

I highly doubt that number.

I also think its a very dangerous game to assume that we, Great Britain, bastion of good morals and honesty throughout our history, are the only ones being truthful. We're no morally superior to any other nation.

And remember, we went weeks without declaring care home deaths. To hold us up as some pillar of honesty in a lying international community is not correct, in my view,

Lying International Community sounds about right,Joe.Some countries haven’t even yet declared care home deaths.The Empire is in the distant past,mate.The jury,in my view,is still out.Your doubting of a German scientist estimate puzzles me.Do you have the same doubts when the UK scientists reckon there is 8k daily cases in the UK instead of the 2k being stated?

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1 minute ago, Joe B said:

Whilst this is all a correct, separate point, in that some false allegations were made, you can at least admit that the trip to Barnard Castle was at least questionable, possibly illegal, and a man of his standing deserves scrutiny of his decision to take the trip?

I've admitted all of that previously in this thread Joe.

 

Will you admit that the trip to Barnard Castle was possibly not illegal and scrutiny of decision making does not always mean that the person should lose their job?

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5 minutes ago, Nofinikea said:

I dont think it's a case of moral superiority at all.  It seems to me that many people here are all to ready to do our country down.  I am no fan of how this has been handled and I think the current Tory administration is the worst this country has ever had which I believe in the fullness of time, history will show.

However, this constant insistence that Germany and the likes are so much better is really not right.  German figures are what they tell us, throughout history they have hardly been a bastion of integrity and in fact many of you voted to sever our ties with them, so why the big love in now? 

This virus will kill roughly the same percentage of people who catch it world wide.  The problem is, we do not know who has had it so death figures without accurate infection figures are a bit misleading.  There will be anomalies in the stats based on general population health and if certain regions have a higher number of people at risk of more serious infection.  

Are we suggesting that Germans are generally healthier than us and are walking around with less health defects? Maybe they are, but again to accurately asses the figures you need to know the starting point and that means you need to know general health positions of each country prior to Covid.

Just from that alone, anybody can see that comparing death rates in any way is simply trying to bash our handling without actually knowing if it's right or not.  There is plenty to get stuck in about with regards to the shambles that is now unfolding without trying to make the narrative fit with the death toll.  Remember, every single one of those deaths world wide is a personal tragedy for others and not a stick to measure each others dicks by.

So you're suggesting Germany may have been economical with the truth because of issues from the 1940s, and that as some people (not me) voted to leave the EU, we therefore cannot take anything from the clearly superior way they've handled the virus?

With regards to your last sentence, the only way we're going to minimise further psersonal tragedies is by looking outwards to see what more successful countries have done. Being insular and refusing to believe other countries have used different methods, and therefore saved more lives, as we refuse to 'do our country down' (translation: rightly criticise it when due), is daft.

Edited by Joe B

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3 hours ago, Nofinikea said:

How accurate is the reporting though?   We know Thailand has one of the biggest wealth gaps in the world and that suicide amoungst the poorest is high, something that has been reported has increased as the Thai people struggle to get the state aid the have been promised.  When somebody with nothing dies, how is it recorded?

How accurate is any reporting?

I don't trust government statistics from any country.

If someone with nothing dies it's recorded in a similar way to the UK.... as a death

The lockdown came early and came hard,  perhaps if the UK had done the same the death rate and infection rates would not be so high.

Perhaps if people were temperature checked before entering supermarkets the spread may have been reduced.

Perhaps if sensible restrictions had been imposed at the right time we wouldn't need 200,000 test capacity..... although I would question if the 100,000+ test figure is correct.

Is the Thai government a paragon of honesty? No.... but then neither is the UK. 

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Comparing  total deaths from one year to another, any large increase will be due to a reason like famine or a pandemic. Excess deaths  in any  year or  month compared to an average of recent years/months  will be  clear.  A country with lower excess deaths compared to its neighbours is likely to have handled a pandemic more effectively,  especially with similar sized populations.  Germany was clearly better prepared to deal with Corona than some other countries.

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44 minutes ago, Regal Beagle said:

 

-he wasn't ill when he travelled

-he had a valid, reasonable and lawful excuse for travelling to Durham initially

This is wrong. 

He wasnt ill - well in that case why was he worried about looking after his son?? 

Also his wife was ill, so why was she travelling? If you're ill youre not meant to travel. And if she wasn't ill then why would they be worried about looking after their son?

We both know he had access to help in London too.

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Statistics watchdog criticises government's testing data

Britain’s statistics watchdog has again warned the health secretary, Matt Hancock, that figures on coronavirus tests remain “far from complete and comprehensible”.

In a strongly-worded letter, Sir David Norgrove, chairman of the UK Statistics Authority, said the way the government presented the figures appeared to be aimed at showing “the largest possible number of tests, even at the expense of understanding”.

The government has faced repeated criticism for its daily testing figures, in which it counts in its headline figure the number of tests posted out to people as well as the number of those completed. It is also not clear from the government data how many of the tests carried out are repeat tests on the same person.

Norgrove said the government’s current statistics figures were misleading people during the daily No 10 briefing as they often do not explain how the headline figure on the number of tests has been calculated.

He said the way the tests were presented at the televised press conference gives “an artificially low impression of the proportion of tests returning a positive diagnosis”.

Norgrove said it was also “hard to believe the statistics work to support the testing programme itself”, adding that they “still fall well short” of the statistics code of practice which Hancock has said he supported. He added:

It is not surprising that given their inadequacy that data on testing are so widely criticised and often mistrusted.

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42 minutes ago, Regal Beagle said:

I've admitted all of that previously in this thread Joe.

 

Will you admit that the trip to Barnard Castle was possibly not illegal and scrutiny of decision making does not always mean that the person should lose their job?

@Regal Beagle Do you believe that public figures should be held to the highest accountable level when it comes to following their own policy? I acknowledge they shouldn't be treated differently in law. I'm talking here about their job, not their freedom.

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