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4 hours ago, Fosse69 said:

The ONS is a Non-ministerial  government department  created by Gordon Brown, a manifesto commitment, presumably because previous  governments had been selective in the statistics produced. So as independent as you can get, not a private enterprise which which will have vested interests. 

I see TheSage has liked this post.

 

It seems he disagrees when I call the ONS a Government department but he has no objection to someone else calling it a Government department.

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11 minutes ago, Regal Beagle said:

You are simply not correct.

Yes I am.

Starmer said that statement was made... it was.

Boris said that statement wasn’t made... it was.

Now lets talk about your “get out clause”... To say there was no cases in the Uk means there it is “highly unlikely people receiving care in a care home will become infected” isn’t true is it.

The government was allowing flight into the country from places that had it, weren’t they? 

They knew there WAS A RISK that it would end up in the uk. 

So saying in an official guideline that it was HIGHLY UNLIKELY that people in care home will become infected is wrong.

So even with your “context”... it was wrong. 

More importantly, given this argument, it was said... so it is on face you that are wrong.

 

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As a bystander reading these posts it seems to me that some are based on political bias, ( Unhappy at the election and Brexit vote)some are based on ego's ( The usual suspects ) some are based on just being dogmatic and argumentative and all the time there are people dying as we speak in hospital of this virus.

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6 hours ago, Regal Beagle said:

 

Because what Starmer is saying is not truthful. He took a part of the Public Health England advice because it sounds far worse, months later, than what it actually was intended to mean, months ago.

 

Boris wasn't saying "there's no risk to care homes" - PHE were saying "there's currently no risk to care homes because there is currently no evidence of transmission within the UK"

 

2 very different sentences there.

Apparently the situation has been studied since the fall out by independent adjudicators, and they have concluded that the facts presented by Starmer today were indeed correct.  Where has this info come from The BBC, The Labour Party no it has come from the Torygraph. I am sure RB as a true blue you will believe that.

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Interesting report emerging in the global news journal Foreign Policy about the data issued by the Chinese government:

https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/05/12/leaked-chinese-coronavirus-database-number-cases/

A dataset of coronavirus cases and deaths from the Chinese military’s National University of Defence Technology indicates that were as many as 640,000 cases compared to the official 83,000.

Surely some mistake.

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8 minutes ago, tommytunstall said:

Apparently the situation has been studied since the fall out by independent adjudicators, and they have concluded that the facts presented by Starmer today were indeed correct.  Where has this info come from The BBC, The Labour Party no it has come from the Torygraph. I am sure RB as a true blue you will believe that.

The same Telegraph that has the headline:

Keir Starmer took Boris Johnson apart like a Duplo train set

At PMQs, the new Labour leader asked a series of calmly factual questions – and the Prime Minister visibly struggled
 

Maybe the Tories are starting to see what many have known... Boris is a joke who isn’t fit to lead in such a time.

The sooner Rishi gets the job the better.

What this country needs is two strong parties that can hold each other accountable.

Not a fuzzy haired fool who has blundered and lied his way to the top being challenged by an boarderline communist who divided his own party and made himself unelectable.

Sort it out politics... you have become so sh*t recently that BORIS <ovf censored>**g JOHNSON is leading us through the biggest challenge since the way! 

And they way that people in this thread have defended the bad on both sides is deplorable. 
 

Rant over!

Edited by Iron Curtain
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8 minutes ago, tommytunstall said:

Apparently the situation has been studied since the fall out by independent adjudicators, and they have concluded that the facts presented by Starmer today were indeed correct.  Where has this info come from The BBC, The Labour Party no it has come from the Torygraph. I am sure RB as a true blue you will believe that.

They were in the government advice issued on 25th March and withdrawn 13th March, this is the section below and shows how complacent they were.

 7. Guidance on facemasks

During normal day-to-day activities facemasks do not provide protection from respiratory viruses, such as COVID-19 and do not need to be worn by staff in any of these settings. Facemasks are only recommended to be worn by infected individuals when advised by a healthcare worker, to reduce the risk of transmitting the infection to other people. It remains very unlikely that people receiving care in a care home or the community will become infected.

PHE recommends that the best way to reduce any risk of infection for anyone is good hygiene and avoiding direct or close contact (within 2 metres) with any potentially infected person.

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That advice was taken from WHO advice. The same WHO who have found China to have done nothing wrong and agreed the wet markets should open again.

Edited by philpvfc
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Very interesting programme tonight on Channel 4, illustrating how South Korea beat the virus, by testing, by heat detecting travellers at airports etc. Amazing how swiftly they reacted. Well worth a view.

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Who gives a crap about what Boris said in January or February or March. 

The UK is in a crisis, day to day, hour to hour crisis that is killing people. What was said and to some extent what was done months or even weeks ago is irrelevant to what's happening today, right at this minute.

The time for recriminations, blame, fault is when the crisis is no longer a crisis, when people are not dying in there hundreds per day or getting infected by the thousands.

This is not a future event like brexit or the effect borrowing has on the GDP that can  be debated at a leisurely pace.

If you are going to kick Boris,  and I think he needs a kick because in my opinion he has made mistakes, do it for what he says and does today because that's what's crucial to the outcome of today and tomorrow.

Personally I don't give a rat's ass at this juncture if a line in a piece of text from months ago is altered or not...... that's not having a go at starmer, when it's over by all means rip Boris a new anal cavity.

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1 hour ago, vale addict said:

The excess deaths that are not Covid deaths are one of the downsides of been in Lockdown..

Source: https://www.onevalefan.co.uk/forum/topic/42513-coronavirus/page/115/?tab=comments#comment-904465

 

This is now a poignant issue.  Balancing the lockdown between covid and the economy is one thing, however, the government needs to remove its head from up its own ass and start looking at the non covid deaths occuring because of the covid measures... there was a clue yesterday when Starmer asked Boris about the 10,000 extra non covid deaths in care homes...  

I personally know two elderly people with quite chronic illnesses that needed regular medical treatment, more often than not, in hospital.  They are both dead now because there regular treatment was delayed.  They might have died anyway but they would have had a chance if they could have been admitted.  One in particular had been having nurses out every day who kept saying she was ok and didnt need hospital, then on the very day that the government announced that the NHS was open for business again, they changed there mind and said she needed to go in straight away... it was too late...  nobody can tell me that they werent deliberately stopping her going in until that point, she was simply allowed to die.

So, if the lockdown is causing more collateral deaths than Covid at this point, and it's very likely it is, why arent we opening up?  Why are we being kept locked down, the initial message and indeed the very thing they were granted the powers to lockdown, was to protect the NHS, this has been achieved and now without proper scrutiny they have moved the goalposts to continue the lockdown...  even when the lockdown itself is causing deaths...  food for thought.

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11 hours ago, Iron Curtain said:

Yes I am.

Starmer said that statement was made... it was.

Boris said that statement wasn’t made... it was.

Now lets talk about your “get out clause”... To say there was no cases in the Uk means there it is “highly unlikely people receiving care in a care home will become infected” isn’t true is it.

The government was allowing flight into the country from places that had it, weren’t they? 

They knew there WAS A RISK that it would end up in the uk. 

So saying in an official guideline that it was HIGHLY UNLIKELY that people in care home will become infected is wrong.

So even with your “context”... it was wrong. 

More importantly, given this argument, it was said... so it is on face you that are wrong.

 

Nah, can't help you any more with this one.

 

Your whole premise is based on the assumption that Boris knew Sir Keir meant the literal words without context.

 

You seem to be arguing with Public Health England guidence which is months out of date in the second part of the post so not sure what we gain from going into that one.

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17 minutes ago, Nofinikea said:

This is now a poignant issue.  Balancing the lockdown between covid and the economy is one thing, however, the government needs to remove its head from up its own ass and start looking at the non covid deaths occuring because of the covid measures... there was a clue yesterday when Starmer asked Boris about the 10,000 extra non covid deaths in care homes...  

I personally know two elderly people with quite chronic illnesses that needed regular medical treatment, more often than not, in hospital.  They are both dead now because there regular treatment was delayed.  They might have died anyway but they would have had a chance if they could have been admitted.  One in particular had been having nurses out every day who kept saying she was ok and didnt need hospital, then on the very day that the government announced that the NHS was open for business again, they changed there mind and said she needed to go in straight away... it was too late...  nobody can tell me that they werent deliberately stopping her going in until that point, she was simply allowed to die.

So, if the lockdown is causing more collateral deaths than Covid at this point, and it's very likely it is, why arent we opening up?  Why are we being kept locked down, the initial message and indeed the very thing they were granted the powers to lockdown, was to protect the NHS, this has been achieved and now without proper scrutiny they have moved the goalposts to continue the lockdown...  even when the lockdown itself is causing deaths...  food for thought.

On the flip side Nof. I have a chronic condition and have always received treatment .Aswell my mum,who is in the highest risk category has had a weekly call from her doctor checking on her wellbeing.I think minor ops were cancelled but other treatment such as chemo and major ops weren’t.It is,however,sadly,the fear factor that may have caused deaths.My mum wouldn’t,now,go into hospital for a million.

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