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Beyond Brexit - A new dawn? A leap of faith?


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3 hours ago, Nofinikea said:

You argued that we are free to deal with other countries with bigger potential than the EU.  You listed America as one of those.  To do that we would have to negotiate a deal with them.  For us to be better off than now, that deal would have to be better than any deal they do with the USA.  Otherwise your assertation that whilst the EU is our current single biggest market, but not necessarily the biggest, which you went on to explain was potential other markwts by listing population figures was just meaningless waffle.

So, what makes you think that the UK can negotiate a better deal than the EU?  Or were you just saying stuff.

I did.

I said the Americas,  that's North and South. 

Any deal the EU negotiates will be inline with their objectives and needs, any deal we negotiate will be for ours. The reverse also applies to any country who deals with them/us. If the EU needs wheat they will deal in wheat if the UK grows enough of it's own we may not (just an example). A good deal doesn't simply rely on the monetary value of the total.

I used population figures to show market size not value, the same figures used to show EU market size by others.

It depends on how "better deal" is defined.

It could be a better deal because we are only trying to negotiate for what we need, excluding the things we don't, as opposed to what 28 need which may well include things some of the 28 don't want...... there will always be the possibility of slippage and compromise to reach a deal.

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There's a difference between not accepting the result and not agreeing with the result.  I accepted it would happen but that doesn't make me think it's the right thing to do.  The Brexiteers have been

Grammar.

I hope Brexit is everything that has been promised.  I am long enough in the tooth to realise that the people making those promises have made a career from telling lies without shame. The result

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Let's imagine the UK can produce enough wheat for its own needs plus a surplus to sell/export but other EU countries can't.

The EU may do a deal with the US that benefits them to import wheat.

Its a good deal for the other EU members but not for us.

We do a deal with the U.S.  for olive oil, half the price than the EU deal, good for us not so good for the EU.

Its not that simple, reciprocal deals and pricing etc all play a part.

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6 hours ago, TheSage said:

 

A country can't go round trashing agreements before the ink is dry. You can't go back on your word of honour or we'd have total chaos and anarchy in international relations. What on earth would happen if all countries world-wide said we've changed our mind and we're not keeping our word? Parliament used its sovereignty to sign the Agreement. You can't unilaterally override it.

Christ on a bike Sage, im surprised at you saying that.

After the referendum every party stated they would honour the decision of the people. How long did that last? Some even said it before the referendum.

After the Scottish referendum the SNP were crying.

After some EU referendums countries were made to take them again untill they got the result they wanted.

The libdems promised to abolish student tuition fees but scrapped it to get a sniff of power. 

Expecting honour and for politicians to keep their word is like waiting for fairies to ride unicorns on the streets paved with gold.

The frustration and anger you feel is probably comparable to what brexiteers felt for three years as "parliament" blustered , flustered and faffed about.

Even after the election ticket of get brexit done won a huge majority some don't want to respect or honour the will of the people.

Honour and truth in politics is similar to uttering Voldemort in a potter movie... it shouldn't be done

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5 hours ago, geosname said:

I did.

I said the Americas,  that's North and South. 

Any deal the EU negotiates will be inline with their objectives and needs, any deal we negotiate will be for ours. The reverse also applies to any country who deals with them/us. If the EU needs wheat they will deal in wheat if the UK grows enough of it's own we may not (just an example). A good deal doesn't simply rely on the monetary value of the total.

I used population figures to show market size not value, the same figures used to show EU market size by others.

It depends on how "better deal" is defined.

It could be a better deal because we are only trying to negotiate for what we need, excluding the things we don't, as opposed to what 28 need which may well include things some of the 28 don't want...... there will always be the possibility of slippage and compromise to reach a deal.

OK, so what could the EU possibly need that we don't and vice versa?

Just read the wheat analogy.

So you think these deals could be that specific?  

Edited by Nofinikea

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On top of negotiated deals there is the simple equation of logistics.  Currently we can road haul or train haul goods to the coast, then they pop over a 20 odd mile gap, either by train, still on trucks by ferry etc...  and continue on there journey.  To do the same with the US, the goods needed loading and uploading at least twice as many times.  They need to travel by sea for thousands of miles more or be air freighted at a much greater cost, taking longer than hopping over the channel...

All of this costs money.  So imported goods will be more, exported goods will be less competitive.

We have a mass market sat on our doorstep and we are waving two fingers in the air at them.  How can that be anything but absolutely stupid?

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10 minutes ago, Nofinikea said:

OK, so what could the EU possibly need that we don't and vice versa?

Just read the wheat analogy.

So you think these deals could be that specific?  

It was a simple example.

If they don't have anything we need and we don't have anything they need...... why do we need a deal?

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14 minutes ago, Nofinikea said:

On top of negotiated deals there is the simple equation of logistics.  Currently we can road haul or train haul goods to the coast, then they pop over a 20 odd mile gap, either by train, still on trucks by ferry etc...  and continue on there journey.  To do the same with the US, the goods needed loading and uploading at least twice as many times.  They need to travel by sea for thousands of miles more or be air freighted at a much greater cost, taking longer than hopping over the channel...

All of this costs money.  So imported goods will be more, exported goods will be less competitive.

We have a mass market sat on our doorstep and we are waving two fingers in the air at them.  How can that be anything but absolutely stupid?

We are trying to make a deal, it may or may not come off. If it doesn't both sides lose out. If it's stupid for us it's as stupid for them.

We don't have to approach the situation with cap in hand tugging the forelock....... it's a negotiation not a begging bowl. 

Its obvious we have something they want or they wouldn't be talking.

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43 minutes ago, geosname said:

It was a simple example.

If they don't have anything we need and we don't have anything they need...... why do we need a deal?

But thats not the case so again, do you think any trade deals will be that specific or was it just a simple example with no real point?

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43 minutes ago, geosname said:

We are trying to make a deal, it may or may not come off. If it doesn't both sides lose out. If it's stupid for us it's as stupid for them.

We don't have to approach the situation with cap in hand tugging the forelock....... it's a negotiation not a begging bowl. 

Its obvious we have something they want or they wouldn't be talking.

err, they didn't kick us out, we left.  Thats not there stupidity, that's ours.  They would be stupid to let us enjoy the benefits without membership.  The sticking point from day 1 has been Ireland.  They have been consistent over the border issue for 3 years.  We have danced all around it.  Its not there fault that there is a physical land border between the EU and the UK which requires to be treated carefully.  They weren't the ones who forgot to consider that, just like those who wanted to remain because we and the EU weren't the ones trying force change.  Its is squarely the responsibility of those wanting change to implement it.  The EU have done nothing stupid at all, the stupidity belongs to team Brexit.

And your opening line is bordering in the rediculous, we are trying to make a deal - like <ovf censored> we are.  We are trying to make it the EUs fault and you seem to be buying it.

Edited by Nofinikea

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We literally just signed a trade deal with Japan that is the same as the EU one plus a little bit more. 

 

I wonder if Japan realises that there are 540m more people in the EU? 

 

It's almost as if we can sign trade deals based on OUR WANTS/NEEDS, instead of a country with significantly different culture and socio economic status being able to veto it.

 

Obviously we can sign better deals than the EU. 

 

 

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25 minutes ago, Nofinikea said:

err, they didn't kick us out, we left.  Thats not there stupidity, that's ours.  They would be stupid to let us enjoy the benefits without membership.  The sticking point from day 1 has been Ireland.  They have been consistent over the border issue for 3 years.  We have danced all around it.  Its not there fault that there is a physical land border between the EU and the UK which requires to be treated carefully.  They weren't the ones who forgot to consider that, just like those who wanted to remain because we and the EU weren't the ones trying force change.  Its is squarely the responsibility of those wanting change to implement it.  The EU have done nothing stupid at all, the stupidity belongs to team Brexit.

And your opening line is bordering in the rediculous, we are trying to make a deal - like <ovf censored> we are.  We are trying to make it the EUs fault and you seem to be buying it.

WOW...... you make the EU sound like oz the great and powerful, benevolent to all.

I don't buy anything until the fat lady sings. 

Leaving the EU is only stupid if you voted the other way, you seem to be in the minority. I was against leaving for personal reasons but once the vote came in I could see the damage trying to reverse the decision would cause so I accept it.

That doesn't mean in in agreement of how it's been approached or dealt with.

The wheat example was simply that..... a simple example

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36 minutes ago, Nofinikea said:

And your opening line is bordering in the rediculous, we are trying to make a deal - like <ovf censored> we are.  We are trying to make it the EUs fault and you seem to be buying it.

That's your opinion..... you are welcome to it.

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44 minutes ago, Nofinikea said:

But thats not the case so again, do you think any trade deals will be that specific or was it just a simple example with no real point?

Trade deals are far more complicated than the example I gave.

I tried to make it as simple as possible so you would understand the reference. Hey ho.

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If countries break agreements they should be brought to task. No one should be above the law. I said previously that two wrongs don't make a right. But I don't think the example is quite comparable to the UK deliberately wanting to change domestic law to allow us to then break the most significant international treaty we have signed for 50 years. Bear in mind that the fella who wrote that works for the right wing Spectator and previously defended Cummings for his law breaking at Barnard Castle as well as claiming that Johnson was in no way responsible for the confusing messages around corona virus.

I'm delighted we've signed a trade deal with Japan. The civil servants have done a good job in double quick time. But it's basically the same deal as the EU-Japan deal that we already had. We appear to have gained a bit in data access but lost a bit in agricultural goods. Some trade commentators believe that we conceded more on state aid than we are currently prepared to do with the EU. I don't know about that. But it's more or less a roll over deal of the one we already had as an EU member, nothing special, and probably more important for its symbolic value for pro-Brexit voters. It has to go through the Japanese Parliament first and there have already been a few questioning comments in Japan about our intention to break our word with the EU. They do take these things very seriously in their law-abiding country. But it's good we've replaced what we already had as an EU member. Only 70 more deals to go now.

Japan of course is desperate for us to sign a good EU deal so that they can keep their Nissan, Honda and Toyota plants fully functioning in the UK and able to freely access the European market. That's what we very badly need. All of us.

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6 hours ago, Nofinikea said:

err, they didn't kick us out, we left.  Thats not there stupidity, that's ours.  They would be stupid to let us enjoy the benefits without membership.  The sticking point from day 1 has been Ireland.  They have been consistent over the border issue for 3 years.  We have danced all around it.  Its not there fault that there is a physical land border between the EU and the UK which requires to be treated carefully.  They weren't the ones who forgot to consider that, just like those who wanted to remain because we and the EU weren't the ones trying force change.  Its is squarely the responsibility of those wanting change to implement it.  The EU have done nothing stupid at all, the stupidity belongs to team Brexit.

And your opening line is bordering in the rediculous, we are trying to make a deal - like <ovf censored> we are.  We are trying to make it the EUs fault and you seem to be buying it.

we are, and i kow you dont like the word but its true, a sovereign country, a ex eu member who has decided to go it alone, do you honestly think that they would forget that fact and negotiate a deal as if it was any other country ie Canada... they say we need to adhere to a level playing field, why we say, and they say because you are a seperate country just offshore of us, there could be no deal without guarantees of fair competiton, and agreements on fisheries...if fact measures to prevent the UK from undercutting eu products in the future. Little UK threatening the mighty 27.

i  go with the idea that the eu are trying to make us jump through hoops because theres at least 3 other eu states not happy with how the eu are treating them Italy, Greece, Spain, and are hoping that if they make it difficult, it will make any of the other states perhaps think twice. Because the negotiations we are having are not "meaningful".

   Perhaps another debate in the future, what if scotland gain indepenence in the future and are accepted into the eu, who will have the headache of a border with a non eu state...

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