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Beyond Brexit - A new dawn? A leap of faith?


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12 hours ago, Nofinikea said:

So you considered the Irish border and what might happen and still thought it was a good idea to risk it?

How does you missing the bomb by 45 mins in any way address the position with the Good Friday Agreement?  Do you think the agreement was a good thing?

because if the GFA fails, the murders will be free to do their shti again,

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There's a difference between not accepting the result and not agreeing with the result.  I accepted it would happen but that doesn't make me think it's the right thing to do.  The Brexiteers have been

Grammar.

I hope Brexit is everything that has been promised.  I am long enough in the tooth to realise that the people making those promises have made a career from telling lies without shame. The result

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You are wrong, Geo. Beginning to pass a law that will undermine the WA is illegal and breaking the Agreement. The very act of getting this illegal ball rolling is breaking the terms of the WA.  That's why the government has already lost two of its senior justice ministers and its most senior civil servant specialising in law.

It's not a good example but if you knew someone wanted to kill someone else and you handed them a loaded gun then you would get charged with an illegal act. Not a great comparison, I know, but that's more or less why this is illegally breaking the Agreement that we willingly signed.

I've also said this twice already - there is a mechanism for arbitration built into the WA so we should recourse to that before we illegally break our word. Why don't we do that?

With regard to your examples, two wrongs don't make a right. But in this case we are talking about a significant international treaty that we agreed to a few months ago. Blair and Major were architects of the GFA and I'd imagine know a lot more about it than most living people. 

The US view on all this is important because we are desperately trying to get a trade deal out of them.

But above and beyond all that is the simple observation that if we start breaking treaties, unilaterally ending our legal obligations, going back on our word, we're going to find it extremely difficult negotiating with any country in the future and the hard won reputation of the UK for honesty, integrity and the rule of law is permanently trashed.

 

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8 minutes ago, TheSage said:

You are wrong, Geo. Beginning to pass a law that will undermine the WA is illegal and breaking the Agreement. The very act of getting this illegal ball rolling is breaking the terms of the WA.  That's why the government has already lost two of its senior justice ministers and its most senior civil servant specialising in law.

It's not a good example but if you knew someone wanted to kill someone else and you handed them a loaded gun then you would get charged with an illegal act. Not a great comparison, I know, but that's more or less why this is illegally breaking the Agreement that we willingly signed.

I've also said this twice already - there is a mechanism for arbitration built into the WA so we should recourse to that before we illegally break our word. Why don't we do that?

With regard to your examples, two wrongs don't make a right. But in this case we are talking about a significant international treaty that we agreed to a few months ago. Blair and Major were architects of the GFA and I'd imagine know a lot more about it than most living people. 

The US view on all this is important because we are desperately trying to get a trade deal out of them.

But above and beyond all that is the simple observation that if we start breaking treaties, unilaterally ending our legal obligations, going back on our word, we're going to find it extremely difficult negotiating with any country in the future and the hard won reputation of the UK for honesty, integrity and the rule of law is permanently trashed.

 

You wouldn't be charged with an illegal act if the person you gave it to didnt actually use it...... unless you were not entitled to have the gun in the first place..... it's the act that is against the law not the possibility of the act

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50 minutes ago, TheSage said:

We're going round in circles but right wing posters on here are still to condemn the government breaking the law, reneging on their manifesto commitment and making up a pack of lies to cover their dishonesty and illegality. I'm not holding my breath.

You're either against breaking the law or you condone it? What is it?

We've left. The question now is what type of sensible deal can we get. And like others I'm concerned that we're going to end up with No Deal and our global reputation irretrievably damaged, as well as risking the future of NI.  You've only got to hear what 5 ex PMs think about it, as well as the Irish government and now Joe Biden. To so easily ignore the warnings of such a cross section of experienced politicians is a bit silly.

 

 

 

Is a single part of your post true?

 

The government has not broken any law. 

 

There are always exceptions which set aside laws if specified conditions are met...self defence is a complete defence to murder for example.

 

If the government use this to renege unprovoked then they will be breaching the international treaty. If, as they claim, this is to protect us from nefarious EU tactics then not only do I not condemn it, I actively celebrate it and it will have gone a little way to restoring my diminishing faith in this conservative government to govern conservatively, and to deliver what the people of this country have asked them to deliver.

 

I can't be fairer than that. You would refuse to be that fair I think. Will you even acknowledge that the EU would be breach of the international law if they go through with the NI food imports threat? 

I very much doubt you will.

 

Will the UK be justified in setting aside the NI protocol if the EU attempts to break our sovereignty by claiming jurisdiction over imports and exports between parts ok GB and NI?

 

I'll even tell you the answer, it's yes. 

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10 minutes ago, geosname said:

You wouldn't be charged with an illegal act if the person you gave it to didnt actually use it...... unless you were not entitled to have the gun in the first place..... it's the act that is against the law not the possibility of the act

I would refer you to the Burma oil case.

The crown was held liable for damages by the courts. The government introduced retrospective legislation to absolve the crown of responsibility. 1965? I think Wilson was PM.

Just imagine the UK passing a law after a case had been decided to negate the original decision. WOW. An English mans word and all that.

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10 hours ago, geosname said:

Did the remain voters think about the Irish boarder?

The Remain voters wanted to retain the status quo so the Irish border was not an issue for them.  It behoved the Leave campaign to offer solution but they never mentioned it.

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2 hours ago, Regal Beagle said:

I didn't skirt around anything, I clearly and accurately described why and how the judicial review went against Boris. It is in my post, read it again.

 

I can't take anyone seriously who talks about siphoning money off, feathering nests and cronyism and then uses that to support the EU. 

 

I studied UK constitutional law for a year as part of my degree. I'm still woefully unqualified to debate the intricacies and nuances of it and to boil it down to a sentence as you are is sheer lunacy. You completely fail to acknowledge the basic facts because you are desperate to try and impose WHAT YOU WANT ME TO BELIEVE, on.me, rather than engage with what I actually believe. A common tactic with people who subscribe to particular left wing politics.

 

I'll try and boil it down as simply as I can. Sovereignty refers to legislative powers, it doesn't apply to royal prerogative or common law until parliament decides to legislate to create that authority.

 

There was no direct precedent for the courts ruling on ANY part of proroguing parliament, never mind the length of time and reasons for.

 

The court made constitutional history with that ruling. 

 

That's not Boris riding roughshod (you don't have to use that word in EVERY post by the way). That's Boris using a power he believed he had and then the court deciding that he didn't have that power. Judicial reviews are relatively normal. 

 

Forgetting all of that for a second, the prorogation changed very little and the aims for which you accuse Boris of using it were later met when parliament literally voted his WA through.

 

Secondly, you have no issue with Bercow actually BREAKING constitutional precedent when it suited you. 

 

 

 

Hilarious.

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1 hour ago, Davebrad said:

because if the GFA fails, the murders will be free to do their shti again,

Correct.  So given that you claim to have given all this due consideration, you still decided to vote for something that put the GFA at risk because there has to be a border between the EU and the UK in the event of a no deal exit?

Did you consider at the time of voting that there would not be a deal?  If not, why not? The remain campaign always said that was a real possibility.  If you did, I then come back to why would you vote for something that risked "murderers doing there <ovf censored>" given that you claim to have given all this due consideration?

Finally, why did not a single Brexit leader, Johnson, Gove etc, give NI due consideration during there campaign?  Why didn't they already have a strategy to ensure the GFA was not at risk?  Do you think its because they didn't think they were actually going to win and were actually quite horrified that they now had to deliver what they already knew was improbable or do you just think they were reckless egomaniacs who couldn't care less about the people of NI?

 

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1 hour ago, Jacko51 said:

The Remain voters wanted to retain the status quo so the Irish border was not an issue for them.  It behoved the Leave campaign to offer solution but they never mentioned it.

The remainers missed the opportunity to scare the crap out of everyone and apparently raise a good argument not to leave and they ignored it??? They must have thought calling leavers stupid, ignorant racists a better option to win people over.

To me at least..... there is no viable solution to the NI boarder that does not threaten the peace agreement..... sounds much more convincing than.... the words on the bus are a lie..... the words on the bus are a lie.

I think if you want to scare people into voting your way you have to scare the crap out of them..... remember the Brighton bombing.... remember the Manchester bombing..... remember the indiscriminate killings...... is a bit scarier than..... you might not get fresh aubergine any more.... but then I don't think remainers realised they had that option.  

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2 hours ago, geosname said:

 

As for Biden who gives a rat's ass, about as much use as trump.

Yet a couple of days ago you argued that America was a bigger fish for us to hook up with than the EU, but you go about cementing that relationship by not giving a rats ass what potentially there next president thinks....

Good one!

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5 minutes ago, Nofinikea said:

Yet a couple of days ago you argued that America was a bigger fish for us to hook up with than the EU, but you go about cementing that relationship by not giving a rats ass what potentially there next president thinks....

Good one!

If Biden wins nobody is safe, but international politicians making noise and getting air time near an election isn't unusual. If he does get elected and it's in his best interest he will deal.

He wasn't this vocal when the IRA were being funded.

I actually said the rest of the world was the bigger fish

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1 minute ago, geosname said:

If Biden wins nobody is safe, but international politicians making noise and getting air time near an election isn't unusual. If he does get elected and it's in his best interest he will deal.

He wasn't this vocal when the IRA were being funded.

Just seems to me that you use USA to make your argument when it suits.  If you think we are potentially better off hooking into a deal with the USA then I would suggest we take an interest in what they say.

Just on that note, what makes you think the 66M UK can strike a better deal with the US than the 660M EU?

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1 minute ago, Nofinikea said:

Just seems to me that you use USA to make your argument when it suits.  If you think we are potentially better off hooking into a deal with the USA then I would suggest we take an interest in what they say.

Just on that note, what makes you think the 66M UK can strike a better deal with the US than the 660M EU?

We should take what they say with a pinch of salt, isn't that the advice when trump (the president) speaks,  we should pay far more attention to what people do than what they say..... especially politicians.

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Just now, geosname said:

We should take what they say with a pinch of salt, isn't that the advice when trump (the president) speaks,  we should pay far more attention to what people do than what they say..... especially politicians.

I mentioned the USA as part of a bigger group, the USA is smaller in population than the EU,  I think you will find I quoted the Americas 

 

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1 hour ago, Jacko51 said:

The Remain voters wanted to retain the status quo so the Irish border was not an issue for them.  It behoved the Leave campaign to offer solution but they never mentioned it.

Haha this is getting silly now.

 

So desperate to blame Brexit voters for everything that we are no at fault for the remain campaign being absolutely worthless?

 

It is not up to vote leave to come up with handy arguments for remaining. It is a crazy suggestion. 

  Remain didn't mention it because it wasn't an issue. The EU have made it an issue after the vote. I can post the video of them planning to use Northern Ireland to put political pressure on the UK if you want? 

 

as we said before, we should just I form the EU that we will not be putting up a border with the Republic and they can do as they see fit. 

 

this is a failure of Theresa may. She conceded too much ground, too early. 

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14 minutes ago, Nofinikea said:

Correct.  So given that you claim to have given all this due consideration, you still decided to vote for something that put the GFA at risk because there has to be a border between the EU and the UK in the event of a no deal exit?

Did you consider at the time of voting that there would not be a deal?  If not, why not? The remain campaign always said that was a real possibility.  If you did, I then come back to why would you vote for something that risked "murderers doing there <ovf censored>" given that you claim to have given all this due consideration?

Finally, why did not a single Brexit leader, Johnson, Gove etc, give NI due consideration during there campaign?  Why didn't they already have a strategy to ensure the GFA was not at risk?  Do you think its because they didn't think they were actually going to win and were actually quite horrified that they now had to deliver what they already knew was improbable or do you just think they were reckless egomaniacs who couldn't care less about the people of NI?

 

I watched the referendum results comming in, at about 0130 most of the results were to stay, so off up the wooden hill i went, when i switched on next morning there it was a win to leave. Having done my bit in voting i could only leave it to parliament to carry it thru, well we all know what happened remainers kicked off, and started playing games...

I did think there would be a deal, because both the eu and uk set out the agreement and both signed it, at that time all intensions were good. Then when mays deal after a lot of mither failed 3 times because the different fractions in parliament had their own agenda's, although 90-95% of them voted for artical 50. showed the eu how divided we were and that made them push for us to stay in. Boris was harder to deal with than may, but the eu had already set their red lines and hoped pressure from the remainers he would cave in and accept what they wanted us to accept, but he's showing them we are not going to roll over. Now by introducing the IMB he's showing them he's serious, and making sure they don't try a fast one... Perhaps on hindsight they should have guarded against this earlier, but better late than never.

  You can roll the dice till they call your bluff, but you can never win till your not afraid to lose...

 

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