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Beyond Brexit - A new dawn? A leap of faith?


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7 minutes ago, Regal Beagle said:

It's amazing that a failure of the EU is being held up as an example of why we should remain in the EU.

 

We need to be tougher on illegal immigration and we need to be tougher on France/EU. What happens when one of these boats sinks or another lorry-load of people suffocate? How many deaths does it take for us to try and prevent this from happening?

The immigrants are being trafficked, they are being taken advantage of for vast sums of money, I would have thought that UK BLM would have got involved and told the French government that their actions in turning a blind eye was unacceptable, refugees being used for profit, their lives put at danger.

One dinghy has to turn over no matter where in the Channel and it will all be the UK's fault, the Guardian BBC and Sky will go into meltdown. We are being blackmailed.

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There's a difference between not accepting the result and not agreeing with the result.  I accepted it would happen but that doesn't make me think it's the right thing to do.  The Brexiteers have been

Grammar.

I hope Brexit is everything that has been promised.  I am long enough in the tooth to realise that the people making those promises have made a career from telling lies without shame. The result

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I’m currently watching “the rise of the [Rupert] Murdoch Empire” on BBC iPlayer.

Episode 3 is fascinating. 

It explores Murdochs rise after the phone hacking scandal and his links to Farage and Brexit as well as Trump and his run to presidency. 

Episodes 1 and 2 effectively tell the story of how he has played UK politics like a fiddle for years.

A very interesting watch.

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2 hours ago, Iron Curtain said:

Thought so.

I was pointing out how that’s got nothing to do with this issue.

we still have the ecj to take the french too, but they would get away with it, as they've done before. we've already paid them 100m, now they've asked for 30m extra, but they just want to get rid of the immigants, so they don't have the camps...but as someone said earlier wait till one or two boats sink, then the brown stuff will start flying.  then no doubt it will b our fault  for not sending planes to ferry them all over here... and you want us to stay in partnership with the eu.

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13 hours ago, Mario said:

The immigrants are being trafficked, they are being taken advantage of for vast sums of money, I would have thought that UK BLM would have got involved and told the French government that their actions in turning a blind eye was unacceptable, refugees being used for profit, their lives put at danger.

One dinghy has to turn over no matter where in the Channel and it will all be the UK's fault, the Guardian BBC and Sky will go into meltdown. We are being blackmailed.

 

 

True, have we heard a single sensible suggestion from the leftists (via the media channels you mention) about how best to help these people?

 

Or do we only hear about them when it is politically convenient, painting a false picture of political opponents as a way to damge them and further their own political reputation?

Re BLM - This is one of the many contradictions that completely undermines their whole narrative. It's a problem with that whole branch of leftism. They market themselves as caring for all minorities and "oppressed" groups but in reality they're pretty much silent when it comes to people from the Calais camps or the Uyghur muslims etc.

 

As an aside, I'll take this opportunity to criticise Patal (and Boris' Government on this issue) - They have failed so far and they must get a grip on this issue before more lives are lost.

 

 

 

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The uproar over the migrants arriving in their inflatable rafts makes me absolutely piss myself. I'm sure I'd be labelled a naive loony lefty for the fact that I feel desperately sorry for anybody whose life has become so terrible that they are willing to risk travelling across the chanell, clinging to their kids in an overcrowded dinghy. But Christ I can't help chuckle over the irony that those busting a blood vessel in anger, really thought that Brexit would put a stop to it all. In reality, it's just pissed the French off so much that they aren't going to cooperate in any way whatsoever. In fact they are going to gleefully pile on the agony for the closet Brexit racists, by continuing to make it as easy as possible for the migrants to move out of French waters and into British territory.

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1 hour ago, Regal Beagle said:

 

It's a problem with that whole branch of leftism. They market themselves as caring for all minorities and "oppressed" groups but in reality they're pretty much silent when it comes to people from the Calais camps or the Uyghur muslims etc.

Corbyn visited Calais and also spoke to xi jinping when he visited in 2015. David Cameron went and had a pint. I don’t remember those on the right celebrating this, in fact I’m pretty sure the mail just mocked him. But now we can criticise the left for not doing enough. 
id argue that those volunteering for refugee charities are more likely to be from the left too. But then they will just be bleeding heart liberals who need to look after people from our own country first, I’m sure. 

Edited by Andyregs

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1 hour ago, Smallthorne Dog said:

The uproar over the migrants arriving in their inflatable rafts makes me absolutely piss myself. I'm sure I'd be labelled a naive loony lefty for the fact that I feel desperately sorry for anybody whose life has become so terrible that they are willing to risk travelling across the chanell, clinging to their kids in an overcrowded dinghy. But Christ I can't help chuckle over the irony that those busting a blood vessel in anger, really thought that Brexit would put a stop to it all. In reality, it's just pissed the French off so much that they aren't going to cooperate in any way whatsoever. In fact they are going to gleefully pile on the agony for the closet Brexit racists, by continuing to make it as easy as possible for the migrants to move out of French waters and into British territory.

^^^^^ This.

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The fact of the matter is that it's going to be far more difficult for us in the future to return anyone to Europe because our agreement runs out at the end of the year. So in reality taking back control really means losing control. Under EU agreements, like Le Touquet and Dublin, we have the right to send back some people and the agreement of the EU to do so. But no longer unless we plead with them to help us out. So taking control literally means asking France nicely if they will help us out. 

Why should the French help us if we're leaving the EU? If I was them I'd close the border at Calais and tell us to sort out the ensuing problems at Dover. That would be fun. They already bend over backwards at Calais to help us to police our border on French soil. Don't overlook that fact.

The whole story is whipped up by the right wing media as they know xenophobia is a vote winner for many on the right. In reality, we are talking about a few hundred asylum seekers in dinghies, including children, desperately in need of a safe haven, but anyone would think it's the beginning of WW3. "We're being invaded", cries Farage, desperate for some publicity. If only these people were as concerned about the near 70,000 deaths in the UK since March.  But no. Nobody cares any more. They'd rather talk about a few boats in the Channel. It gives them a chance to beat their chests and blame other people for their failings.

If you want some facts, the UK had 44,000 asylum applications last year, compared to France and Spain who both had 118,000. Greece over 50,000. Germany 188,000. It amounts to less then 6% of our immigration annually. Most of these people are from places like Syria, Yemen, Ethiopia, Afghanistan, Sudan. Many already have relatives in the UK. But we suspended the legal path for resettlement for refugees in March and now they have no legal way of getting here. It is perfectly legitimate to seek refuge in the UK. They do not need to settle in the first country they get to. Many can speak English, which is another reason for wanting to come here.

I'm not defending illegal immigration or criminality. That's a different story. But asylum seekers, in such small numbers, should be helped and supported, just as we did with Jews in the 30s and many Africans in the 60s. We should be an open, tolerant society and not one in which we vilify and demonise immigrants. We probably all came down that route in the past.

The problems were more acute a few years ago when the Calais jungle had more than 6,000 people in it. It's down to around a third of that today. But by closing off the legal route (in March) we have effectively encouraged these people to risk their lives crossing the Channel, in many cases trying to get to family members in the UK. What on earth the navy is supposed to do about it is mind boggling but it sounds good doesn't it?! Patel needs her head examining (not for the first time). Should we blow these dinghies out of the water? Capsize them? Shoot them all? The whole story is a non issue, that was worse a few years ago, and is now being blown up out of all proportion. There are more important things to worry about.

We can't control our own borders, unless we get help from other countries. That's the bottom line.

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Could someone tell me why the poor individuals in those rafts are prepared to pay large sums of money to get to the UK ? Whats the reason ? Ash Sarkar on the Jeremey Vine show this morning said it is because the are leaving war torn countries, so on that level what part of France and Greece are war torn ?

As for the Brexit issue, France have been paid millions to sort this issue out and if they are turning a blind eye to the criminal gangs and do nothing, then that is a disgrace, nothing to do with using Brexit as an excuse but on a human level.

 

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2 hours ago, Smallthorne Dog said:

The uproar over the migrants arriving in their inflatable rafts makes me absolutely piss myself. I'm sure I'd be labelled a naive loony lefty for the fact that I feel desperately sorry for anybody whose life has become so terrible that they are willing to risk travelling across the chanell, clinging to their kids in an overcrowded dinghy. But Christ I can't help chuckle over the irony that those busting a blood vessel in anger, really thought that Brexit would put a stop to it all. In reality, it's just pissed the French off so much that they aren't going to cooperate in any way whatsoever. In fact they are going to gleefully pile on the agony for the closet Brexit racists, by continuing to make it as easy as possible for the migrants to move out of French waters and into British territory.

Yup

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1 hour ago, Mario said:

Could someone tell me why the poor individuals in those rafts are prepared to pay large sums of money to get to the UK ? Whats the reason ? Ash Sarkar on the Jeremey Vine show this morning said it is because the are leaving war torn countries, so on that level what part of France and Greece are war torn ?

As for the Brexit issue, France have been paid millions to sort this issue out and if they are turning a blind eye to the criminal gangs and do nothing, then that is a disgrace, nothing to do with using Brexit as an excuse but on a human level.

 

I guess for the same reason Tommy Robinson didn’t stay in France and Carried on to Spain when he became a refugee and was fleeing because he feared for his families safety.

 

Edited by Iron Curtain

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1 hour ago, Mario said:

 

As for the Brexit issue, France have been paid millions to sort this issue out and if they are turning a blind eye to the criminal gangs and do nothing, then that is a disgrace, nothing to do with using Brexit as an excuse but on a human level.

 

If we were still in the EU we would be better placed to TRY and sort them out and hold France accountable. From outside the tent that will be a lot harder.

Standard expected response: what about the beef.

Response to the beef issue: I have already posted an article of things we have held france accountable for through the ECJ... being out of Europe does not make it easier to hold France accountable. 

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1 hour ago, Mario said:

Could someone tell me why the poor individuals in those rafts are prepared to pay large sums of money to get to the UK ? Whats the reason ? Ash Sarkar on the Jeremey Vine show this morning said it is because the are leaving war torn countries, so on that level what part of France and Greece are war torn ?

 

 

As has been pointed out above, English is the second language for a lot of foreigners, hence they probably think England is a sensible place to go to.  Where would you go if life became intolerable here?

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3 hours ago, Smallthorne Dog said:

The uproar over the migrants arriving in their inflatable rafts makes me absolutely piss myself. I'm sure I'd be labelled a naive loony lefty for the fact that I feel desperately sorry for anybody whose life has become so terrible that they are willing to risk travelling across the chanell, clinging to their kids in an overcrowded dinghy. But Christ I can't help chuckle over the irony that those busting a blood vessel in anger, really thought that Brexit would put a stop to it all. In reality, it's just pissed the French off so much that they aren't going to cooperate in any way whatsoever. In fact they are going to gleefully pile on the agony for the closet Brexit racists, by continuing to make it as easy as possible for the migrants to move out of French waters and into British territory.

A very welcome, sensible post. Especially following the tripe RB has posted!

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2 hours ago, TheSage said:

The fact of the matter is that it's going to be far more difficult for us in the future to return anyone to Europe because our agreement runs out at the end of the year. So in reality taking back control really means losing control. Under EU agreements, like Le Touquet and Dublin, we have the right to send back some people and the agreement of the EU to do so. But no longer unless we plead with them to help us out. So taking control literally means asking France nicely if they will help us out. 

Why should the French help us if we're leaving the EU? If I was them I'd close the border at Calais and tell us to sort out the ensuing problems at Dover. That would be fun. They already bend over backwards at Calais to help us to police our border on French soil. Don't overlook that fact.

The whole story is whipped up by the right wing media as they know xenophobia is a vote winner for many on the right. In reality, we are talking about a few hundred asylum seekers in dinghies, including children, desperately in need of a safe haven, but anyone would think it's the beginning of WW3. "We're being invaded", cries Farage, desperate for some publicity. If only these people were as concerned about the near 70,000 deaths in the UK since March.  But no. Nobody cares any more. They'd rather talk about a few boats in the Channel. It gives them a chance to beat their chests and blame other people for their failings.

If you want some facts, the UK had 44,000 asylum applications last year, compared to France and Spain who both had 118,000. Greece over 50,000. Germany 188,000. It amounts to less then 6% of our immigration annually. Most of these people are from places like Syria, Yemen, Ethiopia, Afghanistan, Sudan. Many already have relatives in the UK. But we suspended the legal path for resettlement for refugees in March and now they have no legal way of getting here. It is perfectly legitimate to seek refuge in the UK. They do not need to settle in the first country they get to. Many can speak English, which is another reason for wanting to come here.

I'm not defending illegal immigration or criminality. That's a different story. But asylum seekers, in such small numbers, should be helped and supported, just as we did with Jews in the 30s and many Africans in the 60s. We should be an open, tolerant society and not one in which we vilify and demonise immigrants. We probably all came down that route in the past.

The problems were more acute a few years ago when the Calais jungle had more than 6,000 people in it. It's down to around a third of that today. But by closing off the legal route (in March) we have effectively encouraged these people to risk their lives crossing the Channel, in many cases trying to get to family members in the UK. What on earth the navy is supposed to do about it is mind boggling but it sounds good doesn't it?! Patel needs her head examining (not for the first time). Should we blow these dinghies out of the water? Capsize them? Shoot them all? The whole story is a non issue, that was worse a few years ago, and is now being blown up out of all proportion. There are more important things to worry about.

We can't control our own borders, unless we get help from other countries. That's the bottom line.

it must be to pick up that £100b+ that they bend over backwards...

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1 hour ago, Iron Curtain said:

If we were still in the EU we would be better placed to TRY and sort them out and hold France accountable. From outside the tent that will be a lot harder.

Standard expected response: what about the beef.

Response to the beef issue: I have already posted an article of things we have held france accountable for through the ECJ... being out of Europe does not make it easier to hold France accountable. 

we could if france  would do what the £100m over the last 6yrs was paid for ie disperse the migrants, to which they now want another £30m. If there is no improvment from the french then we say <ovf censored> the divorce payment... end of.

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