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Beyond Brexit - A new dawn? A leap of faith?


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21 hours ago, Dr Delgado said:

I find it quite bizarre that now we have left the EU you seem to think we are now in the hands of true patriots, even though they maybe narcissistic buffoons,  is the prize that they are our narcissistic buffoons.? You may well have conveniently forgotten about the billions of pounds of dirty Russian money that has come into the country? Furthermore some of it in the form of donations to our political parties. Russia were all for promoting Brexit, they long for a fragmented Europe, in fact they are thriving on it. I genuinely am happy for my mind to be changed, I’m searching for the positives. 

With respect I've not said anything about patriotism, that is only you who has said that. I do think it's quite a low bar to expect the people who govern us to care for the country though, I'm not sure that meets the definition of "true patriots" that you were going for.

 

And secondly, I'm not totally sure what your post has to do with brexit. You seem to be going after the current Government rather than the decision made by the electorate to leave the EU? We can change our Government far more easily than we could ever change who Governs the EU. In fact brexit has made our Government more accountable and given them greater powers to govern the country. 

 

And lastly, I really don't see how Europe is fragmented or how Russia are "thriving" and therefore how either is an argument against brexit or for remain.

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8 hours ago, Regal Beagle said:

With respect I've not said anything about patriotism, that is only you who has said that. I do think it's quite a low bar to expect the people who govern us to care for the country though, I'm not sure that meets the definition of "true patriots" that you were going for.

 

And secondly, I'm not totally sure what your post has to do with brexit. You seem to be going after the current Government rather than the decision made by the electorate to leave the EU? We can change our Government far more easily than we could ever change who Governs the EU. In fact brexit has made our Government more accountable and given them greater powers to govern the country. 

 

And lastly, I really don't see how Europe is fragmented or how Russia are "thriving" and therefore how either is an argument against brexit or for remain.

The post has everything to do with Brexit and the politics of division. The Brexit referendum was akin to asking the voting population “what do you prefer, cats or dogs”? 
Russia clearly feels threatened by any unity which doesn’t include them, promoting Brexit was in their best interests and there is documented evidence of their subversive tactics. The UK’s withdrawal has clearly fragmented Europe, we are the said fragment, there are clearly rumblings in other countries such as Hungary for example. 
If I could see the benefits of Brexit, I would genuinely be happy and feel that even though I voted remain we are in a better place. All I can see is my freedom curtailed, we are not in a better place, are we? Or is it easier to believe it’s better because it’s our own mess, one big overflowing bowl of Eton mess. Were  things really that bad, being in the EU? Maybe it was, how did it negatively affect you.?

I’m not sure what won the day, cats or dogs but jam sure that there is 48% of either that will not go away, that will not fall in line. and accept the result.

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1 hour ago, Dr Delgado said:

The post has everything to do with Brexit and the politics of division. The Brexit referendum was akin to asking the voting population “what do you prefer, cats or dogs”? 
Russia clearly feels threatened by any unity which doesn’t include them, promoting Brexit was in their best interests and there is documented evidence of their subversive tactics. The UK’s withdrawal has clearly fragmented Europe, we are the said fragment, there are clearly rumblings in other countries such as Hungary for example. 
If I could see the benefits of Brexit, I would genuinely be happy and feel that even though I voted remain we are in a better place. All I can see is my freedom curtailed, we are not in a better place, are we? Or is it easier to believe it’s better because it’s our own mess, one big overflowing bowl of Eton mess. Were  things really that bad, being in the EU? Maybe it was, how did it negatively affect you.?

I’m not sure what won the day, cats or dogs but jam sure that there is 48% of either that will not go away, that will not fall in line. and accept the result.

Well I'm not sure we'll agree on the evidence of Russian interference into brexit so it's not really a quantifiable point.

As said, I just don't see how Europe is fragmented when it comes to Russia. If anything the EU lagged behind us due to Germany's oil deal but otherwise the entire world has funded Ukraine's defence. I just don't see what your point is in bringing this up at all. UK and EU have a debate on trade and therefore Russia thrives whilst suffering heavy losses in a proxy war with the entire world? 

 

I do think there's a common trend of remain voters being totally unwilling to acknowledge any positives of brexit. Possibly a hangover from exactly why remain lost the vote in my opinion. Brexit voters know the downsides, I've admitted them because I'm confident in my argument having balanced the pros with the cons. This is why the debates on here never truly add up and we end up playing a silly game whereby remainers pretend that no one can offer a benefit of brexit, brexit voters offer a list of benefits and then remainers fail to acknowledge the list and the cycle continues.

 

If we are using freedom as a metric to measure brexit then brexit is the clear winner.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Regal Beagle said:

Well I'm not sure we'll agree on the evidence of Russian interference into brexit so it's not really a quantifiable point.

As said, I just don't see how Europe is fragmented when it comes to Russia. If anything the EU lagged behind us due to Germany's oil deal but otherwise the entire world has funded Ukraine's defence. I just don't see what your point is in bringing this up at all. UK and EU have a debate on trade and therefore Russia thrives whilst suffering heavy losses in a proxy war with the entire world? 

 

I do think there's a common trend of remain voters being totally unwilling to acknowledge any positives of brexit. Possibly a hangover from exactly why remain lost the vote in my opinion. Brexit voters know the downsides, I've admitted them because I'm confident in my argument having balanced the pros with the cons. This is why the debates on here never truly add up and we end up playing a silly game whereby remainers pretend that no one can offer a benefit of brexit, brexit voters offer a list of benefits and then remainers fail to acknowledge the list and the cycle continues.

 

If we are using freedom as a metric to measure brexit then brexit is the clear winner.

 

 

I still don't get this freedom argument. 

First off, it must have meant people felt constrained when we were in The EU. I didn't.

Then you have to ignore the positives of working with others.

It's like saying a soldier fighting on his own has more freedom and so is more effective than a whole army working together. Just daft.

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32 minutes ago, hillmanhunter said:

I still don't get this freedom argument. 

First off, it must have meant people felt constrained when we were in The EU. I didn't.

Then you have to ignore the positives of working with others.

It's like saying a soldier fighting on his own has more freedom and so is more effective than a whole army working together. Just daft.

If you boil it down to playground logic then the debate is economies of scale vs manoeuvrability. Remainers will gladly accept that the EU is bigger than the UK and therefore can automatically get cheaper bulk trade agreements (and also boss smaller trading partners) but are unwilling to accept the other side of the coin - as evidenced by the vaccine procurement shambles - that we can make better quality decisions and more significantly, faster decisions than them. 

 

It's actually very simple which is why it's so silly that we can't just agree and move on. When we were an EU member state we were not free to make any law we wanted. The laws we passed in the UK had to within a framework that the EU dictated and if they weren't, they literally could punish us like naughty school kids. 

 

Now we can make any law we like in principle and not only that, we have an election every 5 years or less where we directly hire and fire those law makers including the head of the Government. We couldn't do that in the EU. 

 

Democracy and possibly property ownership are the two things that founded and underpin freedom. We quite objectively gained more democracy when we left the EU.

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1 minute ago, Regal Beagle said:

If you boil it down to playground logic then the debate is economies of scale vs manoeuvrability. Remainers will gladly accept that the EU is bigger than the UK and therefore can automatically get cheaper bulk trade agreements (and also boss smaller trading partners) but are unwilling to accept the other side of the coin - as evidenced by the vaccine procurement shambles - that we can make better quality decisions and more significantly, faster decisions than them. 

 

It's actually very simple which is why it's so silly that we can't just agree and move on. When we were an EU member state we were not free to make any law we wanted. The laws we passed in the UK had to within a framework that the EU dictated and if they weren't, they literally could punish us like naughty school kids. 

 

Now we can make any law we like in principle and not only that, we have an election every 5 years or less where we directly hire and fire those law makers including the head of the Government. We couldn't do that in the EU. 

 

Democracy and possibly property ownership are the two things that founded and underpin freedom. We quite objectively gained more democracy when we left the EU.

That all sounds great and everything until (6 years after the vote mind you) one of the leading 'brains' behind Brexit comes up with 'more powerful vacuum cleaners' on his list of 9 (nine) new Brexit freedoms.

Unless you come up with some amazing benefit - surely you have a list of fantastic things we can do now that we've been 'unleashed' - I still only see Brexit as solving a problem that didn't really exist.

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4 hours ago, hillmanhunter said:

That all sounds great and everything until (6 years after the vote mind you) one of the leading 'brains' behind Brexit comes up with 'more powerful vacuum cleaners' on his list of 9 (nine) new Brexit freedoms.

Unless you come up with some amazing benefit - surely you have a list of fantastic things we can do now that we've been 'unleashed' - I still only see Brexit as solving a problem that didn't really exist.

I Agree wholeheartedly, never can I remember leaving Europe being being subject of  bar room debate. The vote was a concession to a bizarre, largely ageing right wing element of the Conservative Party. As I earlier mentioned, it was like asking the electorate their preference on dogs or cats, and as dogs won, cats now don’t matter. Brexit is like the Emperor’s new clothes to certain people. Freedom of movement was a great advantage to me personally, I spend a considerable time in Europe, working mainly and it has caused untold issues. I don’t feel fee at all.

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4 hours ago, hillmanhunter said:

That all sounds great and everything until (6 years after the vote mind you) one of the leading 'brains' behind Brexit comes up with 'more powerful vacuum cleaners' on his list of 9 (nine) new Brexit freedoms.

Unless you come up with some amazing benefit - surely you have a list of fantastic things we can do now that we've been 'unleashed' - I still only see Brexit as solving a problem that didn't really exist.

Can I ask why you are ignoring the previous 6 years of comments from that same leading brain behind brexit?

 

It seems a huge misrepresentation to focus on vacuum cleaners when you can go and easily find any number of interviews where he talks about the potential of brexit. Here's one I've found in seconds for example:

 

 

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Posted (edited)
42 minutes ago, Regal Beagle said:

Can I ask why you are ignoring the previous 6 years of comments from that same leading brain behind brexit?

 

It seems a huge misrepresentation to focus on vacuum cleaners when you can go and easily find any number of interviews where he talks about the potential of brexit. Here's one I've found in seconds for example:

 

 

So his positives for Brexit are 1000s of unknown little regulations that we can now get rid of.

Things like doing a ladder check every month (his example, again). So he must think all of these together will add up to more than the 4% hit to GDP.

Are you convinced by that? Cuz I'm not.

I mean, really? Really?

Is that it? Is that the great freedom we've now gained?

 

Edited by hillmanhunter
not enough umbrage at the colossal waste of time

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12 minutes ago, hillmanhunter said:

So his positives for Brexit are 1000s of unknown little regulations that we can now get rid of.

Things like doing a ladder check every month. So he must think all of these together will add up to more than the 4% hit to GDP.

Are you convinced by that? Cuz I'm not.

See you've done the same thing again there. You've stopped consuming information the second you find something that you feel affirms your view. 

 

Absolutely smacks of someone who reaches a conclusion on EU membership and fills in the reasoning afterwards. 

44 minutes ago, Dr Delgado said:

I Agree wholeheartedly, never can I remember leaving Europe being being subject of  bar room debate. The vote was a concession to a bizarre, largely ageing right wing element of the Conservative Party. As I earlier mentioned, it was like asking the electorate their preference on dogs or cats, and as dogs won, cats now don’t matter. Brexit is like the Emperor’s new clothes to certain people. Freedom of movement was a great advantage to me personally, I spend a considerable time in Europe, working mainly and it has caused untold issues. I don’t feel fee at all.

It's been debunked on here many times before of course but the argument that Euroscepticism was either non existent or nominal before 2016 is not true. 

I simply don't buy that we accidentally voted for brexit because some crazy old tories were reckless enough to have a vote. It's objectively the largest democratic decision ever taken by our electorate and we've voted in several other elections to affirm the desire to leave.

 

Also don't buy the "cats don't matter thing". Why should cats matter? Cats lost the vote. It was a binary vote between cats and dogs and dogs won. Dogs are therefore the winner. 

 

Freedom of movement was great for people who holiday and work for part of the year in the EU. Not so great for unskilled UK workers though and certainly not worth hundreds of millions a week and signing over our sovereignty for in my view.

 

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1 minute ago, Regal Beagle said:

See you've done the same thing again there. You've stopped consuming information the second you find something that you feel affirms your view. 

 

Absolutely smacks of someone who reaches a conclusion on EU membership and fills in the reasoning afterwards. 

It's been debunked on here many times before of course but the argument that Euroscepticism was either non existent or nominal before 2016 is not true. 

I simply don't buy that we accidentally voted for brexit because some crazy old tories were reckless enough to have a vote. It's objectively the largest democratic decision ever taken by our electorate and we've voted in several other elections to affirm the desire to leave.

 

Also don't buy the "cats don't matter thing". Why should cats matter? Cats lost the vote. It was a binary vote between cats and dogs and dogs won. Dogs are therefore the winner. 

 

Freedom of movement was great for people who holiday and work for part of the year in the EU. Not so great for unskilled UK workers though and certainly not worth hundreds of millions a week and signing over our sovereignty for in my view.

 

Well, I've asked you time and time again for examples. Come on, man. Don't be coy.

I've never had to do a ladder check and I'm of the opinion my vacuum cleaner is powerful enough.

I guess I'm one of the lucky few.

What else have you got?

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Is the one of these regulations which Mr Ress Mogg want to remove the EU Working Time Directive which did more for the working man than anything our own government did in recent years?

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19 hours ago, hillmanhunter said:

Well, I've asked you time and time again for examples. Come on, man. Don't be coy.

I've never had to do a ladder check and I'm of the opinion my vacuum cleaner is powerful enough.

I guess I'm one of the lucky few.

What else have you got?

🤣 

No amount of examples will ever be enough. How about you go through the ones I've already provided first. The list of 9 opposite examples to yours and also the hill that I will absolutely die on - the vaccine procurement shambles.

Work your way through them without stopping at the first sign that you can simply ignore or dismiss them and I'll think about providing you with some more. 

12 hours ago, Jacko51 said:

Is the one of these regulations which Mr Ress Mogg want to remove the EU Working Time Directive which did more for the working man than anything our own government did in recent years?

I don't know Jacko, is JRM against the EU Working Time Directive? If so, why is he against it?

 

And secondly, is your assertion even true? This Government paid people for months on end to sit in their houses in an effort to protect them from mass job losses and Covid, including self employed people. 

 

Whether you want to conclude that guaranteeing a break if you work for 6 hours or giving people 28 days holiday is "more" than guaranteeing income for months to avoid potentially millions of layoffs and 10s of thousands of deaths (LOL as if it's worth asking this question) it's at least in the conversation isn't it?

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4 minutes ago, Regal Beagle said:

🤣

No amount of examples will ever be enough. How about you go through the ones I've already provided first. The list of 9 opposite examples to yours and also the hill that I will absolutely die on - the vaccine procurement shambles.

Work your way through them without stopping at the first sign that you can simply ignore or dismiss them and I'll think about providing you with some more. 

I don't know Jacko, is JRM against the EU Working Time Directive? If so, why is he against it?

 

And secondly, is your assertion even true? This Government paid people for months on end to sit in their houses in an effort to protect them from mass job losses and Covid, including self employed people. 

 

Whether you want to conclude that guaranteeing a break if you work for 6 hours or giving people 28 days holiday is "more" than guaranteeing income for months to avoid potentially millions of layoffs and 10s of thousands of deaths (LOL as if it's worth asking this question) it's at least in the conversation isn't it?

I'm waiting on examples/details from that list of 9. Remember?

Whenever you're ready.

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44 minutes ago, hillmanhunter said:

I'm waiting on examples/details from that list of 9. Remember?

Whenever you're ready.

I remember answering you three times. Which incidentally is three more answers than I get to any of my questions on this forum.

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38 minutes ago, Regal Beagle said:

I remember answering you three times. Which incidentally is three more answers than I get to any of my questions on this forum.

No you haven't. Still waiting on examples for your vague points (2 to 7).

I'll repeat your list, maybe it helps.

2. Decreased complexity of exporting to the RoW How does leaving EU decrease complexity of exporting to EU? Example?

3. Decreased complexity of exporting to the RoW I'm guessing you meant importing from here. Example?

4. Potential increase to GDP Larf. Yeah, right. How?

5. Increased capacity for skilled RoW workers. What has leaving the EU got to do with RoW workers? 

6. Decreased complexity of working in RoW Go on then. Talk us through that.

7. Price decreases. Can we expext just price decreases or price increases as well? If so, how do they balance out?

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