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Beyond Brexit - A new dawn? A leap of faith?


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10 hours ago, Fosse69 said:

Of course not but one of the reasons why asylum seekers pick certain countries.

Sent from my SM-A715F using onevalefan mobile app
 

That's the point though Fosse, when a refugee is in a safe country eg France, they're not fleeing war or persecution anymore, they have sufficient protection in France or even further back along the line. 

Apparently there is no rule that says refugees have to apply for asylum in the 1st safe country but the very definition of a refugee suggests "country shopping" isn't allowed. It's a mess and the 1951 Refugee Convention needs to be re-written to reflect modern times as the movement of people is a world problem not just one for the west to deal with.

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22 minutes ago, Paul6754 said:

That's the point though Fosse, when a refugee is in a safe country eg France, they're not fleeing war or persecution anymore, they have sufficient protection in France or even further back along the line. 

Apparently there is no rule that says refugees have to apply for asylum in the 1st safe country but the very definition of a refugee suggests "country shopping" isn't allowed. It's a mess and the 1951 Refugee Convention needs to be re-written to reflect modern times as the movement of people is a world problem not just one for the west to deal with.

That is the point, very few speak French, although only a few bother to get as far as France.  Refugees numbers are going to become much greater with famines and will  not respect man made boundaries.

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Can anyone PLEASE try and explain why someone would risk their lives crossing the channel in a dinghy?

 

"because they probably speak English" is not real world. No one risks their life because they don't have an uncle who speaks French.

 

Here's an interesting thought exercise to weed out the disingenuous from the truly virtuous heroes we have posting in this thread....If we could reach a left wing/right wing deal on immigration whereby we absolutely under no circumstances will consider granting asylum to anyone who enters the UK illegally, but, on the flipside we will take in twice the amount of (provable) refugees from the source of the humanitarian crisis (eg refugee camps in Syria, displaced residents of eastern Ukraine, even persecuted Iranians who make it into Saudi Arabia or Turkey and apply for asylum).

 

Would you accept that?

 

 

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On 24/05/2022 at 15:05, Fosse69 said:

That is the point, very few speak French, although only a few bother to get as far as France.  Refugees numbers are going to become much greater with famines and will  not respect man made boundaries.

Not speaking French but having a few words of English is no grounds for the right to asylum in the UK.

Refugee numbers are going to grow in the future not so much because of famine or the so called climate crisis but due to population increase, particularly in Africa, 25% of the world's population are forecast to be African by 2050 (2.5bn people).

People have to respect borders, it is how the modern world works, the security and welfare of a country's citizens are the most important jobs of any government and why the 1951 Refugee Convention needs a re-write.

Without enforced borders there will soon be no country or certainly a very, very different one.

 

 

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10 hours ago, Regal Beagle said:

Can anyone PLEASE try and explain why someone would risk their lives crossing the channel in a dinghy?

 

"because they probably speak English" is not real world. No one risks their life because they don't have an uncle who speaks French.

 

Here's an interesting thought exercise to weed out the disingenuous from the truly virtuous heroes we have posting in this thread....If we could reach a left wing/right wing deal on immigration whereby we absolutely under no circumstances will consider granting asylum to anyone who enters the UK illegally, but, on the flipside we will take in twice the amount of (provable) refugees from the source of the humanitarian crisis (eg refugee camps in Syria, displaced residents of eastern Ukraine, even persecuted Iranians who make it into Saudi Arabia or Turkey and apply for asylum).

 

Would you accept that?

 

 

In a list of considerations regarding refugees, mode of arrival is just below star sign.

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11 hours ago, Paul6754 said:

Not speaking French but having a few words of English is no grounds for the right to asylum in the UK.

Refugee numbers are going to grow in the future not so much because of famine or the so called climate crisis but due to population increase, particularly in Africa, 25% of the world's population are forecast to be African by 2050 (2.5bn people).

People have to respect borders, it is how the modern world works, the security and welfare of a country's citizens are the most important jobs of any government and why the 1951 Refugee Convention needs a re-write.

Without enforced borders there will soon be no country or certainly a very, very different one.

 

 

"The researchers also set out to measure the extent of belief in a conspiracy theory known as ‘the great replacement’: the idea that Muslim immigration is part of a bigger plan to make Muslims the majority of a country’s population.

“Originally formulated in French far-right circles, the widespread belief in a supposedly outlandish nativist conspiracy theory known as the ‘great replacement’ is an important marker and predictor of the Trump and Brexit votes,” said Leal. Some 41% of Trump voters and 31% of Brexit voters subscribed to this theory, compared with 3% of Clinton voters and 6% of Remain voters."

https://www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/brexit-and-trump-voters-more-likely-to-believe-in-conspiracy-theories-survey-study-shows

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1 hour ago, hillmanhunter said:

In a list of considerations regarding refugees, mode of arrival is just below star sign.

So that's a no deal then? I wonder what it is about the calais camp occupants that makes them so deserving of VIP treatment. Front of the queue, little to no checks, we'll even taxi you in half the way across the channel and put you up in a nice hotel.

 

Meanwhile, actual refugees are in camps or basements of steelwork plants actually being bombed. They don't update their tiktok via their iphone with videos of themselves in designer clothes. Out of sight out of mind.

 

3 minutes ago, hillmanhunter said:

"The researchers also set out to measure the extent of belief in a conspiracy theory known as ‘the great replacement’: the idea that Muslim immigration is part of a bigger plan to make Muslims the majority of a country’s population.

“Originally formulated in French far-right circles, the widespread belief in a supposedly outlandish nativist conspiracy theory known as the ‘great replacement’ is an important marker and predictor of the Trump and Brexit votes,” said Leal. Some 41% of Trump voters and 31% of Brexit voters subscribed to this theory, compared with 3% of Clinton voters and 6% of Remain voters."

https://www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/brexit-and-trump-voters-more-likely-to-believe-in-conspiracy-theories-survey-study-shows

Off the bat this sounds like complete and utter <ovf censored>.

 

 

This study is seriously saying that 41% of Trump voters think there's a secret plan to make USA a muslim majority country? I find that very hard to believe. There's hardly any muslims in America? Is it not conflating the OmG tUckER CaRLsOn replacement theory at the southern border? Similar words used but not talking about Muslims and not derived from French "far right" groups?

 

I could easily argue that democrats and remain voters are more likely to believe in conspiracy theories if I get to pick the conspiracies...Russia Gate and Trump's insurrection for example.

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2 minutes ago, Regal Beagle said:

So that's a no deal then? I wonder what it is about the calais camp occupants that makes them so deserving of VIP treatment. Front of the queue, little to no checks, we'll even taxi you in half the way across the channel and put you up in a nice hotel.

 

Meanwhile, actual refugees are in camps or basements of steelwork plants actually being bombed. They don't update their tiktok via their iphone with videos of themselves in designer clothes. Out of sight out of mind.

 

Off the bat this sounds like complete and utter <ovf censored>.

 

 

This study is seriously saying that 41% of Trump voters think there's a secret plan to make USA a muslim majority country? I find that very hard to believe. There's hardly any muslims in America? Is it not conflating the OmG tUckER CaRLsOn replacement theory at the southern border? Similar words used but not talking about Muslims and not derived from French "far right" groups?

 

I could easily argue that democrats and remain voters are more likely to believe in conspiracy theories if I get to pick the conspiracies...Russia Gate and Trump's insurrection for example.

It's a no, but only because it's a completely stupid idea.

I get the feeling that most of your opinions, facts or whatever you like to call them are formed "off the bat".

I don't think you could easily argue that last point either.

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, hillmanhunter said:

"The researchers also set out to measure the extent of belief in a conspiracy theory known as ‘the great replacement’: the idea that Muslim immigration is part of a bigger plan to make Muslims the majority of a country’s population.

“Originally formulated in French far-right circles, the widespread belief in a supposedly outlandish nativist conspiracy theory known as the ‘great replacement’ is an important marker and predictor of the Trump and Brexit votes,” said Leal. Some 41% of Trump voters and 31% of Brexit voters subscribed to this theory, compared with 3% of Clinton voters and 6% of Remain voters."

https://www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/brexit-and-trump-voters-more-likely-to-believe-in-conspiracy-theories-survey-study-shows

HH, What is your point.

Take a look at history and your idea of conspiracy.

Viz the title of your link. I am a Remainer and debated as such on Brexit threads heaven knows how many pages ago. I wasn't allowed to vote in the referendum but the result of the referendum affects me just as much as it affects you.

I bet Dr Leal is from the same department as the Cambridge academic who wrote, "White Lives Don't Matter" and then promoted said academic when complaints were received.  Liberal arts departments at Universities are well know to be the home of "Wokeness", thankfully some people have woke up to this nonsense.

Edited by Paul6754

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1 hour ago, Paul6754 said:

HH, What is your point.

Take a look at history and your idea of conspiracy.

Viz the title of your link. I am a Remainer and debated as such on Brexit threads heaven knows how many pages ago. I wasn't allowed to vote in the referendum but the result of the referendum affects me just as much as it affects you.

I bet Dr Leal is from the same department as the Cambridge academic who wrote, "White Lives Don't Matter" and then promoted said academic when complaints were received.  Liberal arts departments at Universities are well know to be the home of "Wokeness", thankfully some people have woke up to this nonsense.

"Not speaking French but having a few words of English is no grounds for the right to asylum in the UK."

Who is saying it is? That's such a strawman. People are saying it's a reason for choosing the UK. Not that it would a reason for their right to choose the UK. 

Where are you getting their proficiency in English from as well? 

What do you mean by 'so called climate crisis'? Well, I guess I know what you mean. It's a real tell.

Who is saying our borders should not be enforced? Do you know how people claim asylum in the UK.

I don't get what's wrong with being woke, either. Maybe give me some examples.

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Updated figures show that 75% of asylum claims made to the UK authorities in the last 12 months have been successful. So whilst the Government increasingly tries to discourage people arriving they are actually granting asylum to a higher proportion which seems a little odd.

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10 hours ago, hillmanhunter said:

It's a no, but only because it's a completely stupid idea.

I get the feeling that most of your opinions, facts or whatever you like to call them are formed "off the bat".

I don't think you could easily argue that last point either.

Yeah I'm sure you do get that feeling, it's called projection.

 

And I really could easily argue that. Some polls claimed that nearly half of all americans believed Trump had colluded with Russia. We know now that Clinton made that up to steal the 2016 election.

We're not talking democrats there, that's half of all Americans believing a complete fabrication by the American left wing. 

 

Easy.

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1 hour ago, Tony Rodriguez said:

Updated figures show that 75% of asylum claims made to the UK authorities in the last 12 months have been successful. So whilst the Government increasingly tries to discourage people arriving they are actually granting asylum to a higher proportion which seems a little odd.

Are they trying to discourage people arriving, or are they trying to discourage people arriving illegally?

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1 hour ago, hillmanhunter said:

"Not speaking French but having a few words of English is no grounds for the right to asylum in the UK."

Who is saying it is? That's such a strawman. People are saying it's a reason for choosing the UK. Not that it would a reason for their right to choose the UK. 

Where are you getting their proficiency in English from as well? 

What do you mean by 'so called climate crisis'? Well, I guess I know what you mean. It's a real tell.

Who is saying our borders should not be enforced? Do you know how people claim asylum in the UK.

I don't get what's wrong with being woke, either. Maybe give me some examples.

Your very good at asking questions HH but lousy at providing answers.

So I'll meet you half way, I'll provide an answer to one of the questions you've posed above then you provide an answer to my question above asking "What is your point"? then I'll answer the other questions above. Gordon Bennet.

There is no Climate Crisis, there are only flawed climate models predicting doom and gloom scenarios. The Climate has always changed and always will. You live your life as though the world will end in 2030 and I'll live my life as I choose. If you wanna continue a Climate discussion then do so on the climate thread.

 

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39 minutes ago, Paul6754 said:

Your very good at asking questions HH but lousy at providing answers.

So I'll meet you half way, I'll provide an answer to one of the questions you've posed above then you provide an answer to my question above asking "What is your point"? then I'll answer the other questions above. Gordon Bennet.

There is no Climate Crisis, there are only flawed climate models predicting doom and gloom scenarios. The Climate has always changed and always will. You live your life as though the world will end in 2030 and I'll live my life as I choose. If you wanna continue a Climate discussion then do so on the climate thread.

 

My point is the fear of being overwhelmed by immigrants is not based in reality.

 

feel free to backup your climate change claims over on the other thread.

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49 minutes ago, Regal Beagle said:

Yeah I'm sure you do get that feeling, it's called projection.

 

And I really could easily argue that. Some polls claimed that nearly half of all americans believed Trump had colluded with Russia. We know now that Clinton made that up to steal the 2016 election.

We're not talking democrats there, that's half of all Americans believing a complete fabrication by the American left wing. 

 

Easy.

Show your working. Or is that Clinton claim something else you’ve made up ‘off the bat’.

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1 hour ago, Regal Beagle said:

Are they trying to discourage people arriving, or are they trying to discourage people arriving illegally?

If you arrive and claim asylum you are not an illegal immigrant. You have in fact not broken the law in any way. Only if your asylum claim is turned down do you become an illegal immigrant.

I believe the Government is looking to change this.

 

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25 minutes ago, Tony Rodriguez said:

If you arrive and claim asylum you are not an illegal immigrant. You have in fact not broken the law in any way. Only if your asylum claim is turned down do you become an illegal immigrant.

I believe the Government is looking to change this.

 

Yes so they should. We've had 2 major tragedies in the last few years in which migrants have died trying to get into the UK illegally. It's heinous that we haven't really attempted to remove that risk yet.

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