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Beyond Brexit - A new dawn? A leap of faith?


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4 hours ago, Tony Rodriguez said:

I am confused. One of the key issues with the Brexit vote was free movement of EU citizens resulting in Eastern Europeans "taking our jobs". This was said to be a bad thing that Brexit would stop.

From what I have read the British workers for P & O have been sacked without notice and are to be replaced by Colombians.

 

Apparently only The British workers were sacked. EU workers are protected under EU law. You couldn’t make it up.

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On 15/03/2022 at 15:13, hillmanhunter said:

When you voted for Brexit. What type of arrangement with The EU did you envisage?

1. Like Switzerland

2. Like Norway.

3. Like we've got now.

4. Something else. If so, what exactly? What bits of the new found sovereignty are you prepared to give up?

All of those options are better than being an EU member state, but the honest answer would be number 4. They're all very similar but I believed (and still do) that we can get better than Switzerland and Norway whilst still meeting the brexit mandate.

 

In terms of which bits of sovereignty I'm willing to give up - none. Again I think you are deliberately misunderstanding the point, again, because it's such a difficult one to argue with naturally. To agree a trade deal for example, is not giving up sovereignty. Sovereignty is the overall ability to say yes or no and to answer to no one but ourselves on those decisions. There will always be exceptions to that in the 21st century due to international obligations which to be frank, no one really cares about apart from remainers because they think it undermines brexit.

 

So it's much easier to say what a working "sovereignty" looks like....We don't answer to a higher power. We don't get fined if we change UK law to something that another country doesn't find compatible with their values. We are not forced to accept any number of hundreds of millions of people freely. We are not forced to give up uk tax money to pay for infrastructure in places hundreds of miles away. We do not have to accept laws and rules that the british people do not want but cannot stop. We elect our representatives and hold them accountable next election. We decide how we want to be governed. You know, the common sense stuff that every nation, including the EU supra-nation is built upon.

 

In conclusion - if we agree to align particular laws to get benefits when trading, that's fine. If we don't have the option not to align our laws, that is not fine, and that is why we had to leave the EU.

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5 hours ago, Tony Rodriguez said:

I am confused. One of the key issues with the Brexit vote was free movement of EU citizens resulting in Eastern Europeans "taking our jobs". This was said to be a bad thing that Brexit would stop.

From what I have read the British workers for P & O have been sacked without notice and are to be replaced by Colombians.

 

Bit strawmanny though that isn't it?

 

Why not chuck a "johnny foreigner" or "little englander" in too?

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11 hours ago, Regal Beagle said:

All of those options are better than being an EU member state, but the honest answer would be number 4. They're all very similar but I believed (and still do) that we can get better than Switzerland and Norway whilst still meeting the brexit mandate.

 

In terms of which bits of sovereignty I'm willing to give up - none. Again I think you are deliberately misunderstanding the point, again, because it's such a difficult one to argue with naturally. To agree a trade deal for example, is not giving up sovereignty. Sovereignty is the overall ability to say yes or no and to answer to no one but ourselves on those decisions. There will always be exceptions to that in the 21st century due to international obligations which to be frank, no one really cares about apart from remainers because they think it undermines brexit.

 

So it's much easier to say what a working "sovereignty" looks like....We don't answer to a higher power. We don't get fined if we change UK law to something that another country doesn't find compatible with their values. We are not forced to accept any number of hundreds of millions of people freely. We are not forced to give up uk tax money to pay for infrastructure in places hundreds of miles away. We do not have to accept laws and rules that the british people do not want but cannot stop. We elect our representatives and hold them accountable next election. We decide how we want to be governed. You know, the common sense stuff that every nation, including the EU supra-nation is built upon.

 

In conclusion - if we agree to align particular laws to get benefits when trading, that's fine. If we don't have the option not to align our laws, that is not fine, and that is why we had to leave the EU.

"They're all very similar". That's just nuts. Similar how?

I was really looking for some practical answers.  I think we're past the philosophical debate regarding Brexit. 

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23 minutes ago, Fosse69 said:
13 hours ago, hillmanhunter said:
Apparently only The British workers were sacked. EU workers are protected under EU law. You couldn’t make it up.

Wonder who voted against making fire and hire illegal?

Was it the BBC?😀

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14 hours ago, Regal Beagle said:

All of those options are better than being an EU member state, but the honest answer would be number 4. They're all very similar but I believed (and still do) that we can get better than Switzerland and Norway whilst still meeting the brexit mandate.

 

In terms of which bits of sovereignty I'm willing to give up - none. Again I think you are deliberately misunderstanding the point, again, because it's such a difficult one to argue with naturally. To agree a trade deal for example, is not giving up sovereignty. Sovereignty is the overall ability to say yes or no and to answer to no one but ourselves on those decisions. There will always be exceptions to that in the 21st century due to international obligations which to be frank, no one really cares about apart from remainers because they think it undermines brexit.

 

So it's much easier to say what a working "sovereignty" looks like....We don't answer to a higher power. We don't get fined if we change UK law to something that another country doesn't find compatible with their values. We are not forced to accept any number of hundreds of millions of people freely. We are not forced to give up uk tax money to pay for infrastructure in places hundreds of miles away. We do not have to accept laws and rules that the british people do not want but cannot stop. We elect our representatives and hold them accountable next election. We decide how we want to be governed. You know, the common sense stuff that every nation, including the EU supra-nation is built upon.

 

In conclusion - if we agree to align particular laws to get benefits when trading, that's fine. If we don't have the option not to align our laws, that is not fine, and that is why we had to leave the EU.

Sorry but this is bull$hit,

a. there is zero way we can get better than Switzerland.  This Newkip Government have already been trying that for yeas now and got absolutely nowhere.

b. Yes, you absolutely DO give up 'part' of your sovereignty in a Trade Deal.  You don't understand trade deals if you think that; but then again people like you always think you do when you don't and that other countries will bow to whatever you say.   And, for the record, as a member of the EU we (the UK) never, ever gave up any sovereignty - we shared it with other countries.  In sharing we raised our standard of living far beyond what we were in the 60's and 70's and we are now seeing that drop back.  Go figure.  But you won't.

And before you jump up and get excited that you have to give up part of your sovereignty in a trade deal and we didn't in joining the EU, when we joined the EU it wasn't 'just' a trade deal.  It was so much more, so much far better.  Sadly, you will never understand that but, more likely, because of your commitment to the Brexit dogma, you will point blank refuse to acknowledge that what you have done has damaged our country and will continue to do so for future generations.

As for holding our representatives to account, I think people like you should also be held to account as clearly you have lied to your fellow citizens.

 

Hey ho.

 

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2 hours ago, Osh said:

Sorry but this is bull$hit,

a. there is zero way we can get better than Switzerland.  This Newkip Government have already been trying that for yeas now and got absolutely nowhere.

b. Yes, you absolutely DO give up 'part' of your sovereignty in a Trade Deal.  You don't understand trade deals if you think that; but then again people like you always think you do when you don't and that other countries will bow to whatever you say.   And, for the record, as a member of the EU we (the UK) never, ever gave up any sovereignty - we shared it with other countries.  In sharing we raised our standard of living far beyond what we were in the 60's and 70's and we are now seeing that drop back.  Go figure.  But you won't.

And before you jump up and get excited that you have to give up part of your sovereignty in a trade deal and we didn't in joining the EU, when we joined the EU it wasn't 'just' a trade deal.  It was so much more, so much far better.  Sadly, you will never understand that but, more likely, because of your commitment to the Brexit dogma, you will point blank refuse to acknowledge that what you have done has damaged our country and will continue to do so for future generations.

As for holding our representatives to account, I think people like you should also be held to account as clearly you have lied to your fellow citizens.

 

Hey ho.

 

Honestly couldn't finish reading this, it was that bad.

 

Just after the part where you said "trade deals = giving away sovereignty but being in the EU doesn't."

 

That simply put, is not true, you know it, I know it, we all know it. So why would say it?

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Go on, I thought I'd jumped the gun so I finished the rest of it. Nope it doesn't get any better 🤣

 

So Trade deals = giving up sovereignty

EU = not giving up sovereignty

EU = trade deal plus some "better" stuff

EU = still not a giving up sovereignty?

 

I've seen some really crazy remainer logic posted over the years, but this is up there.

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1 hour ago, tommytunstall said:

Sorry but you and HH are subject to RBs Brexit Bull, when he is in the wrong he just writes paragraphs of dribble. You are not alone others have tried and given up.

Back that up or admit that it is a lie.

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7 minutes ago, Regal Beagle said:

Honestly couldn't finish reading this, it was that bad.

 

Just after the part where you said "trade deals = giving away sovereignty but being in the EU doesn't."

 

That simply put, is not true, you know it, I know it, we all know it. So why would say it?

Rubbish. 

 

You are lying. Simple as. We all know your lying. 

Shame on you. 

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5 hours ago, hillmanhunter said:

"They're all very similar". That's just nuts. Similar how?

I was really looking for some practical answers.  I think we're past the philosophical debate regarding Brexit. 

It's absolutely outrageous for any remain supporter to ask for practical answers at this point. But I feel like I've answered it as best as I possibly can. I'm not actually sure what you want me to say, but thanks for not imagining I've said something else like most people do on here.

 

Considering we've been discussing red tape requirements for the last few pages, I think we've been talking quite practically. 

 

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2 minutes ago, tommytunstall said:

The evidence is all there in your previous posts.

You cannot substantiate anything you say can you?

 

It's really quite awful to post things without accountability and without any ability to substantiate them. 

 

Dishonest.

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