Jump to content

Beyond Brexit - A new dawn? A leap of faith?


Aussie Rules
 Share

Recommended Posts

Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Jacko51 said:

Which other election was May a party leader??????  I've shown three and ignored the Trump one although there were polls which had him neck and neck with Clinton. 

Some polls undoubtedly get it wrong but not ALL polls do and it is easy to pick random ones from a decade that are wrong. 

You haven't disproved one yet,let alone most.

And if you look at the 2017 Eve of Eve poll you will see they said she would win by a huge landslide - it didn't happen.

Another poll that was completely wrong.

Edited by jimbo57

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Advert:


9 hours ago, jimbo57 said:

You haven't disproved one yet,let alone most.

And if you look at the 2017 Eve of Eve poll you will see they said she would win by a huge landslide - it didn't happen.

Another poll that was completely wrong.

Link??  Anyway, there’s no point continuing this so feel free to have the last word. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, For Us All said:

You'd have thought the EU would have lifted rules to help this aid for a worn torn country wouldn't you?

A T1 document is a UK requirement to export to any country, not just EU. Apart from that, yeah. Good point.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Advert:


12 minutes ago, hillmanhunter said:

A T1 document is a UK requirement to export to any country, not just EU. Apart from that, yeah. Good point.

Thanks,so is the delay caused by someone in the UK failing to fill the document in correctly and somebody at the other end not accepting it,or something else?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, For Us All said:

Thanks,so is the delay caused by someone in the UK failing to fill the document in correctly and somebody at the other end not accepting it,or something else?

 

I feel like we're going on a journey here. I've found the UK red tape page that describes the whole T1 process. Have a read, if you like, and wallow in all the taking back controlness of it.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/how-to-move-goods-between-or-through-common-transit-countries-including-the-eu

  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Obviously I don't really follow the mental gymnastics here.

 

Are we saying that red tape = bad? In which case,  we've swapped Brussels red tape for British red tape and therefore the "controlness" has inevitably improved?

 

You seem to be confusing your remainer rhetoric there. Is it the regaining control aspect of brexit or the implementation of brexit you have an issue with? We can fix the second one via general elections. EXACTLY what we voted brexit for but also direct contradiction to your jibe about "controlness".

 

It's mad how the only way remain makes sense now is to misunderstand brexit, when they spent years accusing brexit voters of misunderstanding.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

20 minutes ago, Regal Beagle said:

Obviously I don't really follow the mental gymnastics here.

 

Are we saying that red tape = bad? In which case,  we've swapped Brussels red tape for British red tape and therefore the "controlness" has inevitably improved?

 

You seem to be confusing your remainer rhetoric there. Is it the regaining control aspect of brexit or the implementation of brexit you have an issue with? We can fix the second one via general elections. EXACTLY what we voted brexit for but also direct contradiction to your jibe about "controlness".

 

It's mad how the only way remain makes sense now is to misunderstand brexit, when they spent years accusing brexit voters of misunderstanding.

There was no Brussels red tape. Not for importing and exporting. I don't know what you're referring to there. We've created red tape where there was none. I think this is bad, you think it's good as that is a follow on from taking back control.  So now you're saying we can fix the thing that you wanted to happen in the first place. Ok. Great how?

I've not misunderstood brexit. We've made it difficult for immigrants/refugees to enter the country. That's what people voted for. We've taken back control of our borders so that everything coming in and out of the country is now checked. That's also what we voted for. What am I missing?

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

22 hours ago, hillmanhunter said:

There was no Brussels red tape. Not for importing and exporting. I don't know what you're referring to there. We've created red tape where there was none. I think this is bad, you think it's good as that is a follow on from taking back control.  So now you're saying we can fix the thing that you wanted to happen in the first place. Ok. Great how?

I've not misunderstood brexit. We've made it difficult for immigrants/refugees to enter the country. That's what people voted for. We've taken back control of our borders so that everything coming in and out of the country is now checked. That's also what we voted for. What am I missing?

1. Ah so we're just picking and choosing what red tape is good or bad based on what suits our agenda? I get it.

2. You've made that up. You are strawmanning and as I have never actually said that I "think the red tape is good" or I "Wanted [red tape] to happen" I can't and won't defend that point. You are arguing with your own imagination there so please leave me out of it.

3. I know you haven't misunderstood brexit, that part of of my post was tongue in cheek. You know full well what it was about but because it's incredibly difficult to hold a position that both understands brexit and argues against it, you have to pretend it means something else. Hence why you've bizarrely bought refugees and immigration into the equation. It's a the common smear tactic of remain. Chuck a load of mud, home some of it sticks, can't defend any of it, move on to some other wild claims, then back to these in 2 weeks and round and round we go.

 

It will be russian money and legally binding buses again any minute now.

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Advert:


13 minutes ago, Regal Beagle said:

1. Ah so we're just picking and choosing what red tape is good or bad based on what suits our agenda? I get it.

2. You've made that up. You are strawmanning and as I have never actually said that I "think the red tape is good" or I "Wanted [red tape] to happen" I can't and won't defend that point. You are arguing with your own imagination there so please leave me out of it.

3. I know you haven't misunderstood brexit, that part of of my post was tongue in cheek. You know full well what it was about but because it's incredibly difficult to hold a position that both understands brexit and argues against it, you have to pretend it means something else. Hence why you've bizarrely bought refugees and immigration into the equation. It's a the common smear tactic of remain. Chuck a load of mud, home some of it sticks, can't defend any of it, move on to some other wild claims, then back to these in 2 weeks and round and round we go.

 

It will be russian money and legally binding buses again any minute now.

 

 

 

1. Ah so we're just picking and choosing what red tape is good or bad based on what suits our agenda? I get it.

Well, if it's red tape about making sure commercial aircraft are flown safely, I'm all for it. If it's red tape about sending a birthday present to my mate in Germany, I'm against it.

2. You've made that up. You are strawmanning and as I have never actually said that I "think the red tape is good" or I "Wanted [red tape] to happen" I can't and won't defend that point. You are arguing with your own imagination there so please leave me out of it.

You're going around in circles. You can't not want to leave the single market and not be prepared to put up with red tape. They go hand in hand. If I'm misrepresenting you, then explain yourself.

3. I know you haven't misunderstood brexit, that part of of my post was tongue in cheek. You know full well what it was about but because it's incredibly difficult to hold a position that both understands brexit and argues against it, you have to pretend it means something else. Hence why you've bizarrely bought refugees and immigration into the equation. It's a the common smear tactic of remain. Chuck a load of mud, home some of it sticks, can't defend any of it, move on to some other wild claims, then back to these in 2 weeks and round and round we go.

spacer.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

20 minutes ago, hillmanhunter said:

1. Ah so we're just picking and choosing what red tape is good or bad based on what suits our agenda? I get it.

Well, if it's red tape about making sure commercial aircraft are flown safely, I'm all for it. If it's red tape about sending a birthday present to my mate in Germany, I'm against it.

2. You've made that up. You are strawmanning and as I have never actually said that I "think the red tape is good" or I "Wanted [red tape] to happen" I can't and won't defend that point. You are arguing with your own imagination there so please leave me out of it.

You're going around in circles. You can't not want to leave the single market and not be prepared to put up with red tape. They go hand in hand. If I'm misrepresenting you, then explain yourself.

3. I know you haven't misunderstood brexit, that part of of my post was tongue in cheek. You know full well what it was about but because it's incredibly difficult to hold a position that both understands brexit and argues against it, you have to pretend it means something else. Hence why you've bizarrely bought refugees and immigration into the equation. It's a the common smear tactic of remain. Chuck a load of mud, home some of it sticks, can't defend any of it, move on to some other wild claims, then back to these in 2 weeks and round and round we go.

spacer.png

 

🤣

 

If you want to discuss why we should allow unrestricted access to predominantly white people at the cost of predominantly non-white immigration then we can do it you like? Not all remain voters are racist but all racists voted remain.

 

See, it gets silly when we just try to smear each other because we can't defend our position doesn't it?

 

 

 

As for the red tape stuff, we're getting bogged down in definitions here but "Red tape" is a negative description of regulations and so it's not something I can agree with that some red tape is good and some is bad. Some might be more justifiable or acceptabel I'll grant you.

 

As for it going hand in hand with being outside of the single market - you have to say that because again, that has to be true to be able to conclusively state that being in the single market is the only way to avoid red tape. It isn't though, is it? 

How can there be no red tape on imports and exports within a particular "trade bloc", but to be outside of that "trade bloc" means agreeing with and accepting inevitable red tape? Your point makes zero logical sense. They can't both be true unless you can tell me explicitly how the EU manages to avoid red tape on imports and exports in a way which would be impossible for us to avoid it?

 

The difference with me and you, in my view, is that I knew Brexit wouldn't be perfect. I knew there would be a period of choppy waters. I got lambasted on here by remainers for saying that before we'd left the EU. I didn't really understand their points obviously, but again, it suits the remain position to place unrealistic expectations of brexit right from the off. Of course we will make improvements over the next few years. If you don't like a particular export form then what is stopping the next Government trying to resolve it? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, Regal Beagle said:

 

🤣

 

If you want to discuss why we should allow unrestricted access to predominantly white people at the cost of predominantly non-white immigration then we can do it you like? Not all remain voters are racist but all racists voted remain.

 

See, it gets silly when we just try to smear each other because we can't defend our position doesn't it?

 

 

 

As for the red tape stuff, we're getting bogged down in definitions here but "Red tape" is a negative description of regulations and so it's not something I can agree with that some red tape is good and some is bad. Some might be more justifiable or acceptabel I'll grant you.

 

As for it going hand in hand with being outside of the single market - you have to say that because again, that has to be true to be able to conclusively state that being in the single market is the only way to avoid red tape. It isn't though, is it? 

How can there be no red tape on imports and exports within a particular "trade bloc", but to be outside of that "trade bloc" means agreeing with and accepting inevitable red tape? Your point makes zero logical sense. They can't both be true unless you can tell me explicitly how the EU manages to avoid red tape on imports and exports in a way which would be impossible for us to avoid it?

 

The difference with me and you, in my view, is that I knew Brexit wouldn't be perfect. I knew there would be a period of choppy waters. I got lambasted on here by remainers for saying that before we'd left the EU. I didn't really understand their points obviously, but again, it suits the remain position to place unrealistic expectations of brexit right from the off. Of course we will make improvements over the next few years. If you don't like a particular export form then what is stopping the next Government trying to resolve it? 

I'm skipping the word salad at the start.

"As for it going hand in hand with being outside of the single market - you have to say that because again, that has to be true to be able to conclusively state that being in the single market is the only way to avoid red tape. It isn't though, is it? "

Explain how this works. I'm interested to know.

How can there be no red tape on imports and exports within a particular "trade bloc", but to be outside of that "trade bloc" means agreeing with and accepting inevitable red tape? Your point makes zero logical sense. They can't both be true unless you can tell me explicitly how the EU manages to avoid red tape on imports and exports in a way which would be impossible for us to avoid it?

Eh? I've lived outside the EU, prior to Brexit. There was a lot of red tape for imports and exports.  I remember some brexiters like Daniel Hannan rocking up at the Swiss border and claiming the red tape was a lie. I'm not sure what you're getting at there.

The difference with me and you, in my view, is that I knew Brexit wouldn't be perfect. I knew there would be a period of choppy waters. I got lambasted on here by remainers for saying that before we'd left the EU. I didn't really understand their points obviously, but again, it suits the remain position to place unrealistic expectations of brexit right from the off. Of course we will make improvements over the next few years. If you don't like a particular export form then what is stopping the next Government trying to resolve it? 

I lived in Switzerland for 20 odd years. Importing/exporting with the EU involved a lot of red tape. It's the nature of being outside the EU. The difference between you and me is that you think a future UK government can make things all better. They can't. Red tape is an inherent property of Brexit. It can't be shooed away. Ask The Swiss, ask The Norwegians. If you, as you say, knew what you voted for, then you must be aware of this.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, hillmanhunter said:

I'm skipping the word salad at the start.

"As for it going hand in hand with being outside of the single market - you have to say that because again, that has to be true to be able to conclusively state that being in the single market is the only way to avoid red tape. It isn't though, is it? "

Explain how this works. I'm interested to know.

How can there be no red tape on imports and exports within a particular "trade bloc", but to be outside of that "trade bloc" means agreeing with and accepting inevitable red tape? Your point makes zero logical sense. They can't both be true unless you can tell me explicitly how the EU manages to avoid red tape on imports and exports in a way which would be impossible for us to avoid it?

Eh? I've lived outside the EU, prior to Brexit. There was a lot of red tape for imports and exports.  I remember some brexiters like Daniel Hannan rocking up at the Swiss border and claiming the red tape was a lie. I'm not sure what you're getting at there.

The difference with me and you, in my view, is that I knew Brexit wouldn't be perfect. I knew there would be a period of choppy waters. I got lambasted on here by remainers for saying that before we'd left the EU. I didn't really understand their points obviously, but again, it suits the remain position to place unrealistic expectations of brexit right from the off. Of course we will make improvements over the next few years. If you don't like a particular export form then what is stopping the next Government trying to resolve it? 

I lived in Switzerland for 20 odd years. Importing/exporting with the EU involved a lot of red tape. It's the nature of being outside the EU. The difference between you and me is that you think a future UK government can make things all better. They can't. Red tape is an inherent property of Brexit. It can't be shooed away. Ask The Swiss, ask The Norwegians. If you, as you say, knew what you voted for, then you must be aware of this.

 

If I were skipping word salads then the conversation would already be over.

 

Logically....If it is possible to trade between nations without red tape, then it is possible to trade between nations without red tape.

 

You are saying....It's possible to trade between (EU) nations without red tape, but not possible to trade between (non EU) nations without red tape. Which is it? Both can't be true.

 

It sounds to me like you are saying that the red tape is the fault of the EU and therefore British Government's cannot solve the issue? Possibly. The EU have a lot of faults.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Regal Beagle said:

 

If I were skipping word salads then the conversation would already be over.

 

Logically....If it is possible to trade between nations without red tape, then it is possible to trade between nations without red tape.

 

You are saying....It's possible to trade between (EU) nations without red tape, but not possible to trade between (non EU) nations without red tape. Which is it? Both can't be true.

 

It sounds to me like you are saying that the red tape is the fault of the EU and therefore British Government's cannot solve the issue? Possibly. The EU have a lot of faults.

It's possible for nations to trade between each other without red tape if they agree to common rules and conditions. You could call this a single market. All parties would have to agree to the rules and conditions. You could send elected representatives to a parliament where these rules get set. Any country that doesn't sign up to these rules and conditions would have to have their goods checked on entry. In case they were trying to import something that had been agreed to be banned, like hormone injected beef or whatever.

If a country decided to leave this agreement to go their own way. Then, inherently, they're agreeing that anything they then try to import into the group they used to belong to will need to be checked. 

I'm saying The British Government can't solve the issue of not being able to enjoy the benefits of being in a club they've just decided to leave.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Advert:


1 hour ago, hillmanhunter said:

It's possible for nations to trade between each other without red tape if they agree to common rules and conditions. You could call this a single market. All parties would have to agree to the rules and conditions. You could send elected representatives to a parliament where these rules get set. Any country that doesn't sign up to these rules and conditions would have to have their goods checked on entry. In case they were trying to import something that had been agreed to be banned, like hormone injected beef or whatever.

If a country decided to leave this agreement to go their own way. Then, inherently, they're agreeing that anything they then try to import into the group they used to belong to will need to be checked. 

I'm saying The British Government can't solve the issue of not being able to enjoy the benefits of being in a club they've just decided to leave.

So in principle we could simply reach an agreement with the EU to start reducing red tape to the point where it is gone. As you say, just an agreement between two countries. There's actually nothing stopping a British Government from attempting to negotiate with the EU for the removal of the need for red tape.

 

We agree 80% of the way by the looks of it. You are trying to paint this as a permanent position though despite admitting that there is actually nothing stopping us from seeking better conditions for import/exports. I see the current state of affairs as being one up from default positions, a foundation from which the next few Governments can improve our relationship with the EU in a mutually beneficial way.

 

This is where the deliberate misunderstanding of brexit comes in. I think most people would agree that it is more beneficial to be inside of the single market than outside when it comes to trading with the EU. But we have to factor in the cost of being in there. Brexit says that the cost of membership was too high.

We want to trade freely but we don't want to accede sovereignty to the EU. Whether or not we allow free movement of people or whether we want to agree to trade deals with non-EU countries is of no concern to the EU. None at all.

That's why we voted for brexit and that is why remainers don't want to engage with that point, because you'd be arguing for why the EU is right to demand political sovereignty and trade deal exclusivity in return for not having to fill some forms in to export goods. 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

17 minutes ago, Regal Beagle said:

So in principle we could simply reach an agreement with the EU to start reducing red tape to the point where it is gone. As you say, just an agreement between two countries. There's actually nothing stopping a British Government from attempting to negotiate with the EU for the removal of the need for red tape.

 

We agree 80% of the way by the looks of it. You are trying to paint this as a permanent position though despite admitting that there is actually nothing stopping us from seeking better conditions for import/exports. I see the current state of affairs as being one up from default positions, a foundation from which the next few Governments can improve our relationship with the EU in a mutually beneficial way.

 

This is where the deliberate misunderstanding of brexit comes in. I think most people would agree that it is more beneficial to be inside of the single market than outside when it comes to trading with the EU. But we have to factor in the cost of being in there. Brexit says that the cost of membership was too high.

We want to trade freely but we don't want to accede sovereignty to the EU. Whether or not we allow free movement of people or whether we want to agree to trade deals with non-EU countries is of no concern to the EU. None at all.

That's why we voted for brexit and that is why remainers don't want to engage with that point, because you'd be arguing for why the EU is right to demand political sovereignty and trade deal exclusivity in return for not having to fill some forms in to export goods. 

 

 

 

So in principle we could simply reach an agreement with the EU to start reducing red tape to the point where it is gone. As you say, just an agreement between two countries. There's actually nothing stopping a British Government from attempting to negotiate with the EU for the removal of the need for red tape.

Yes. If we agree to abide by all EU laws now and going forward. Is that the Brexit you want? Oh, they've also said we can re-join the single market if we allow freedom of movement. Happy with that?

 

We agree 80% of the way by the looks of it. You are trying to paint this as a permanent position though despite admitting that there is actually nothing stopping us from seeking better conditions for import/exports. I see the current state of affairs as being one up from default positions, a foundation from which the next few Governments can improve our relationship with the EU in a mutually beneficial way.

This is where the deliberate misunderstanding of brexit comes in. I think most people would agree that it is more beneficial to be inside of the single market than outside when it comes to trading with the EU. But we have to factor in the cost of being in there. Brexit says that the cost of membership was too high.

We want to trade freely but we don't want to accede sovereignty to the EU. Whether or not we allow free movement of people or whether we want to agree to trade deals with non-EU countries is of no concern to the EU. None at all.

That's why we voted for brexit and that is why remainers don't want to engage with that point, because you'd be arguing for why the EU is right to demand political sovereignty and trade deal exclusivity in return for not having to fill some forms in to export goods. 

I get the feeling you're confusing FTAs and border checks. We have FTAs with the EU but border checks are still necessary due to divergence. The EU has the same deal with all 3rd countries.  

I hope you don't think I'm not engaging with any of your points.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

  • Reporting Posts and Ignoring Users

    • Admin don't read everything. Don't assume we'll spot rule breaking. Please report posts and we'll act ASAP. If you're logged in use the orange report post button. If you're not logged in, please - Contact us here
    • If you can't get on with another user you can "ignore" them. Follow the link, type in their username and save - Click here
    • Check with admin if you wish to sell/auction any items. We're happy to support good causes but check first - Contact us here
  • Friends of OVF




×
×
  • Create New...