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Beyond Brexit - A new dawn? A leap of faith?


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16 minutes ago, Tony Rodriguez said:

Despite Brexit?

I am confused. Not because of Brexit?

 

 

It is a Sun quote, whether Brixham  export much I have no idea, but most UK seafood is exported,  have Brexit restrictions been implemented yet?

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On 04/01/2022 at 22:16, Paul6754 said:

Regal,  What aspect or portion of sovereignty did the UK get back that made regaining sovereignty such a big win for the UK on leaving the EU. 

In or out of the EU the UK is still a signatory to may treaties which are written agreements made between nations that are governed by international law eg the UN Refugee Convention of 1951 etc.  So the UK Sovereign/Government cannot do as it pleases even it it's own lands hence it could be considered it doesn't have full sovereignty even now despite leaving the EU.  

The way things are panning out the UK could possibly lose sovereignty over Scotland and/or Northern Ireland due to Brexit. 

Great question Paul thanks.

 

It depends how you view sovereignty and especially how you define it. 

 

If you define sovereignty you have to really use the idea of state independence which is free from coercion from others. That's very basic but those are the elements required for state sovereignty.

 

The EU was clearly coercive, they admit it on their websites. They punish states who don't comply with them. They take them through their own court system and punish nations who pass laws which are not compatible with EU laws. It's the whole point of the EU in the last few decades.

 

Are international treaties such as the refugee one you mentioned...coercive? Or have we voluntarily entered an agreement based on morality? We have the option to not be a signatory to that treaty. In fact a quick google says there's 40 odd nations which are non-signatories including India, Pakistan and many middle-eastern states. (Interestingly, the area which accounts for the vast majority of refugees).

 

Maybe looking back at brexit, we got terminology wrong slightly if you look at sovereignty on a philosophical level....meaning that maybe we didn't "Regain" our sovereignty via brexit, because if we had the option to leave the EU anyway, then we had the ultimate authority and so therefore had sovereignty all along. 

In that case, maybe "Restore" would be a better word. It doesn't change much in a practical sense. In my experience (and certainly my own view) is that people on the street were not bothered about legal or philosophical debates about sovereignty, but they wanted to be Governed in Britain by people we choose to elect, without the threat of being outvoted by hundreds of millions of people in a different country. So that's the "sovereignty" I refer to when I say that brexit has been a success based on the number one reason that people voted for it.

 

Whether or not we had sovereignty all along is irrelevant because we could not have executed our sovereignty and remained in the EU, definitionally speaking. The EU would have kept on punishing us or kicked us out, if we had tried. 

And I don't really believe that a voluntary treaty is a removal of sovereignty because to make that argument you'd have to agree that the EU was absolutely a complete removal of sovereignty, which is the point I'm making.

 

 

 

 

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On 08/01/2022 at 10:56, Regal Beagle said:

Great question Paul thanks.

 

It depends how you view sovereignty and especially how you define it. 

 

If you define sovereignty you have to really use the idea of state independence which is free from coercion from others. That's very basic but those are the elements required for state sovereignty.

 

The EU was clearly coercive, they admit it on their websites. They punish states who don't comply with them. They take them through their own court system and punish nations who pass laws which are not compatible with EU laws. It's the whole point of the EU in the last few decades.

 

Are international treaties such as the refugee one you mentioned...coercive? Or have we voluntarily entered an agreement based on morality? We have the option to not be a signatory to that treaty. In fact a quick google says there's 40 odd nations which are non-signatories including India, Pakistan and many middle-eastern states. (Interestingly, the area which accounts for the vast majority of refugees).

 

Maybe looking back at brexit, we got terminology wrong slightly if you look at sovereignty on a philosophical level....meaning that maybe we didn't "Regain" our sovereignty via brexit, because if we had the option to leave the EU anyway, then we had the ultimate authority and so therefore had sovereignty all along. 

In that case, maybe "Restore" would be a better word. It doesn't change much in a practical sense. In my experience (and certainly my own view) is that people on the street were not bothered about legal or philosophical debates about sovereignty, but they wanted to be Governed in Britain by people we choose to elect, without the threat of being outvoted by hundreds of millions of people in a different country. So that's the "sovereignty" I refer to when I say that brexit has been a success based on the number one reason that people voted for it.

 

Whether or not we had sovereignty all along is irrelevant because we could not have executed our sovereignty and remained in the EU, definitionally speaking. The EU would have kept on punishing us or kicked us out, if we had tried. 

And I don't really believe that a voluntary treaty is a removal of sovereignty because to make that argument you'd have to agree that the EU was absolutely a complete removal of sovereignty, which is the point I'm making.

 

 

 

 

That all makes the years of infighting and increased likelihood of the breakup of the UK sound worthwhile.  Well done. 

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On 10/01/2022 at 11:32, hillmanhunter said:

That all makes the years of infighting and increased likelihood of the breakup of the UK sound worthwhile.  Well done. 

 

Not being in the EU makes up for all of that, 10x over.

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, Packmoor_vale said:

Mr beagle u don’t half talk some sense 👍

 

Thanks pal, just call it as I see it. 

 

These lot paint me as some radical entrenched fAr RIgHT tory who will never change my mind because they're radical entrenched far left pseudo-socialists who only change their mind when they're told too (this is a joke by the way but also it's not a joke).🤣

 

2 hours ago, tommytunstall said:

Birds of a feather..............

 

I'd love to know why you believe the things you do, but alls we get are these throw away comments. Shame.

 

 

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24 minutes ago, Regal Beagle said:

Thanks pal, just call it as I see it. 

 

These lot paint me as some radical entrenched fAr RIgHT tory who will never change my mind because they're radical entrenched far left pseudo-socialists who only change their mind when they're told too (this is a joke by the way but also it's not a joke).🤣

 

 

I'd love to know why you believe the things you do, but alls we get are these throw away comments. Shame.

 

 

Can you please explain the benefits of leaving the EU, you keep spouting on about. Cos I ain’t seeing it 

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3 hours ago, tommytunstall said:

Can you please explain the benefits of leaving the EU, you keep spouting on about. Cos I ain’t seeing it 

Sure, the big one for me was that we can hold the people who govern us accountable now. That was diluted so much in the EU that we basically had next to no way of removing people in elections who we felt were not serving us.

If you don't like what Boris does, vote for someone else. In the EU we voted for people who voted for people to govern us, even then our individual votes were basically zero when there are 500 million other people with wholly different cultures, requirements and expectations who can outvote us. We had one of the lowest amount of MEPs pro rata too. It makes no sense that give that power away unless we're getting something truly very good in return, which was debatable at the very least.

 

Secondly, the EU itself as an organisation is just not very good. They waste so much money on vanity projects and the red tape is insane. For them to make a decision they had to go and ask all 28 member states what they thought. If you disagreed you would be eventually outvoted anyway which meant that you'd either have to plead for a veto (I think we had the most vetos of everyone by number) or lump it. We now make decisions for the UK. We don't have to go and ask Romania or Belgium what they think - two completely different countries with different economies who probably won't agree on very much.

 

The other big one I'd say is the direction of travel for the EU  is not something I liked. I don't support a european army, I don't support a federal EU government eroding national sovereignty into states. I believe we were handicapped a bit by not joining the Euro (100% completely the right decison by the way) but when the EU makes economic decisions they obviously made them for the greater good which would have been their currency first. Econmically the EU is a disaster zone, Ireland, Greece, Spain and Italy are basically bankrupt and needed constant bailouts. Why tether ourselves to that?

 

Not an exclusive list but they are the big ones I'd say.

 

 

It's like staying in a loveless marriage. Remainers would say "yeah but we get this particular tax benefit"...maybe but we're both deeply unhappy and want different things darling 🤣

Edited by Regal Beagle

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On 13/01/2022 at 15:41, Regal Beagle said:

Secondly, the EU itself as an organisation is just not very good. They waste so much money on vanity projects and the red tape is insane.

How's that Red Tape thing going...??  The people who bought you Brexit and promised we'd all be richer, we'd have cheaper fuel (I need to take a break at this point and stop laughing! 🤣) we'd control our borders (hello France can you help, please!) and we'd hold all the cards - and that trading with the EU would be simpler and easier because we'd get rid of the red tape - have just introduced the greatest amount of red tape ever known.  And its set to get worse in the summer when Rules of Origin are bought in.

 

Also, as patriot, how do you feel about your Government openly admitting to using techniques first drawn up in Germany in 1932 by the Nazis to continually lie, never admit the truth, and now make it illegal for a British Citizen to protest about our lot....??

Brexit has been a complete and utter disaster; sadly its going to get worse.  And its the poorest in society that will bear the biggest burden.

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I read somewhere recently of a social experiment held in Glasgow where people were played pipe music and asked if they liked it. They were told it was Irish pipe music - the catholics who were asked loved it and the protestants hated it. They were then told actually, it is Orange order pipe music and they all changed their minds.

It seems for some people, so long as people belong to a particular tribe they can do no wrong.

This thread reminds me of that. 
 

Edited by Jacko51

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1 hour ago, Osh said:

How's that Red Tape thing going...??  The people who bought you Brexit and promised we'd all be richer, we'd have cheaper fuel (I need to take a break at this point and stop laughing! 🤣) we'd control our borders (hello France can you help, please!) and we'd hold all the cards - and that trading with the EU would be simpler and easier because we'd get rid of the red tape - have just introduced the greatest amount of red tape ever known.  And its set to get worse in the summer when Rules of Origin are bought in.

 

Also, as patriot, how do you feel about your Government openly admitting to using techniques first drawn up in Germany in 1932 by the Nazis to continually lie, never admit the truth, and now make it illegal for a British Citizen to protest about our lot....??

Brexit has been a complete and utter disaster; sadly its going to get worse.  And its the poorest in society that will bear the biggest burden.

When is Disaster Man going to resign? Not likely he only leads after the parade has started.

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57 minutes ago, Jacko51 said:

I read somewhere recently of a social experiment held in Glasgow where people were played pipe music and asked if they liked it. They were told it was Irish pipe music - the catholics who were asked loved it and the protestants hated it. They were then told actually, it is Orange order pipe music and they all changed their minds.

It seems for some people, so long as people belong to a particular tribe they can do no wrong.

This thread reminds me of that. 
 

Sounds a bit like football fans in Stoke-on-Trent?

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2 hours ago, Osh said:

How's that Red Tape thing going...??  The people who bought you Brexit and promised we'd all be richer, we'd have cheaper fuel (I need to take a break at this point and stop laughing! 🤣) we'd control our borders (hello France can you help, please!) and we'd hold all the cards - and that trading with the EU would be simpler and easier because we'd get rid of the red tape - have just introduced the greatest amount of red tape ever known.  And its set to get worse in the summer when Rules of Origin are bought in.

 

Also, as patriot, how do you feel about your Government openly admitting to using techniques first drawn up in Germany in 1932 by the Nazis to continually lie, never admit the truth, and now make it illegal for a British Citizen to protest about our lot....??

Brexit has been a complete and utter disaster; sadly its going to get worse.  And its the poorest in society that will bear the biggest burden.

 

I'm not quite sure you are listing the selling points of brexit completely accurately but yeah, I knew there would be downsides, never said or pretended otherwise. At least the red tape which affects us know is either consented to or created by ourselves. We no longer have to adhere to a country hundreds of miles away with vastly different culture, requirements and socio-economic conditions. We've already discussed a big example of this with the vaccine roll out success. 

 

As for fuel prices...I am not totally sure anyone who isn't a world leading economist can really start to begin to define how much of the current economic issues are caused by brexit and how much are caused by covid. You might claim brexit, if so, I'll just say covid and then we're no better off. To be honest, I don't know the extent of either, but I'm pretty sure you don't know.

I do know that fuel prices are through the roof globally. You can't pin that on brexit can you? 

 

I'm reasonably patriotic, why wouldn't I be?

 

And as for Boris and the current Government - not really brexit related but if you need some context - I voted for them, I was fairly happy with how they got brexit done. I was ok with the early reaction to Covid until early summer 2020 ish when I started to have some serious issues.

As it stands today, I'm disgusted by them. They're not conservative in the slightest, and I say that not as a conservative myself, but as a libertarian who shares the same traditional vision of smaller government with national responsibilities only (Defence, borders, international trade and infrastructure for example, to some extent, possibly, health care, although I could be convinced either way).

 

I totally agree with you about the 1930s germany similarities. Obviously not quite the same motivations or rhetoric but 100% similar tactics. They've made an enemy out of the unvaccinated, given people someone to blame, and they've peddled lie after lie, complete propaganda. Check out the Covid thread, especially from the last 2-3 months and I've said all this before.

 

Whether or not I'll ever be able to bring myself to vote for them again, I don't know. Certainly not whilst the current crop of tyrants are about. There are some brilliant voices in the party but they'll get nowhere near the leadership unfortunately.

 

That being said, Labour are absolutely no better and in some ways much worse. They've provided no opposition to this tyranny, they could have stopped some of it and voted with it. Most of the time saying that the Government isn't going far enough.

 

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