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Beyond Brexit - A new dawn? A leap of faith?


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1 hour ago, Regal Beagle said:

Yeah in theory. Why do you think only Hungary did it though? And they had to approve the Chinese and Russian vaccinations and still couldn't beat our early rollout of the AZ and Pfizer vaccines.

 

As for the rest, I refer you to the post you quoted. Your best example of why we should be in the EU in this matter is a country that directly went against the EU and supposedly did better for it. Is that right?

If you want to put words into my mouth then that is up to you. You are the one who said this 

 

"We also have to remember that being outside of the EU gave us an absolutely massive advantage in the vaccination race early on"

I just argued that your point wasn't true. The rest of it is all conjecture on your part.

 

Why do you think only Hungary did it though?

NOthing to do with the EU blocking them from doing it though? Will you agree your statement just wasn't true then? 

 

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1 hour ago, geosname said:

They used to have the maginot line..... about as much use as a washing line to keep invaders out. 

And Germany had the defensive Siegfried Line. A complete waste of money as it was built to defend against the French.

As if?

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42 minutes ago, WV said:

If you want to put words into my mouth then that is up to you. You are the one who said this 

 

"We also have to remember that being outside of the EU gave us an absolutely massive advantage in the vaccination race early on"

I just argued that your point wasn't true. The rest of it is all conjecture on your part.

 

Why do you think only Hungary did it though?

NOthing to do with the EU blocking them from doing it though? Will you agree your statement just wasn't true then? 

 

You are so far gone I feel sorry for you.

 

You cannot give me one example of an EU country rolling out AZ/Pfizer/Moderna in anywhere near the same levels as we did. The actual PRESIDENT OF THE EU COMMISSION admits that we were at massive advantage. I posted the quotes. You've read them.

 

I saw a hungarian news story which spoke of how well they'd done by approving the Chinese and Russian vaccines early which added to the EU procured western vaccines afterwards.

 

They had to go to Russia and China for their early vaccines, we went to Pfizer and AstraZeneca. You honestly don't see a different in that?

 

I think the fact that you are arguing this one is quite silly if I'm honest. It just highlights to me that there will be no concessions from you on the brexit subject. Everything has to be anti-brexit or nothing. Take the loss, you'll actually look a bit more believable on the battles you can actually win then.

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1 hour ago, Regal Beagle said:

You are so far gone I feel sorry for you.

 

You cannot give me one example of an EU country rolling out AZ/Pfizer/Moderna in anywhere near the same levels as we did. The actual PRESIDENT OF THE EU COMMISSION admits that we were at massive advantage. I posted the quotes. You've read them.

 

I saw a hungarian news story which spoke of how well they'd done by approving the Chinese and Russian vaccines early which added to the EU procured western vaccines afterwards.

 

They had to go to Russia and China for their early vaccines, we went to Pfizer and AstraZeneca. You honestly don't see a different in that?

 

I think the fact that you are arguing this one is quite silly if I'm honest. It just highlights to me that there will be no concessions from you on the brexit subject. Everything has to be anti-brexit or nothing. Take the loss, you'll actually look a bit more believable on the battles you can actually win then.

Why does it have to be AZ/Moderna/Pfizer? Are you so afraid of Russian and Chinese vaccines? Can you show me some solid peer reviewed papers that show that those other vaccines are no good? I will wait...

 

Do you swallow up what the MSM tell you about those countries? And you say I am gone. Quite funny really. You used to make some sense, now you are a rambling hypocritical conspiracy loon. Sorry to see you go this way. 

Edited by WV

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3 hours ago, Regal Beagle said:

Yes of course. The EU is fantastic if it's a trading bloc. But it isn't. The cost of being in the single market is you lose your sovereignty. As Switzerland are about to find out, as we found out. 

 

So if there was a way for us to be a sovereign nation and be in the single market, everyone would have voted for it. But there isn't, because the EU make the rules and that is what they've decided.

 

As it stands, we voted to be outside of the EU. We voted about 5 times on this if you count byelections, referendum, EU elections general elections. It's literally the most secure democratic decision we've ever made in this country. We didn't vote for anything else. We didn't vote for "absolutely no negative economic consequences" and we didn't vote for "fewer immigrants" or anything else that you lot want to misrepresent. We voted to leave the EU.

 

Everything from then on, is up for debate domestically.

Yes we voted to leave the eu, i accept that, but how we would leave did not vote on. 17 million people voted for countless of options. I do recall there being a poll saying people were in favour of staying in the single market and a lot of the big name brexiteers also said we would remain in the single market or have a Norway style agreement. The likes of Raab, Hannan and Farage... 

And I recall there being one leave/remain referendum, not 5. Using your logic you could flip it and say that in 2017 over 50 percent of people voted for parties who opposed no deal and therefore we should have negotiated a closer relationship. 

You can't say all we voted on was to leave or remain one minute and the next say that we voted on sovereignty. I didn't see sovereignty on the paper the same as immigration or the economy. 

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23 hours ago, ginge said:

Yes we voted to leave the eu, i accept that, but how we would leave did not vote on. 17 million people voted for countless of options. I do recall there being a poll saying people were in favour of staying in the single market and a lot of the big name brexiteers also said we would remain in the single market or have a Norway style agreement. The likes of Raab, Hannan and Farage... 

And I recall there being one leave/remain referendum, not 5. Using your logic you could flip it and say that in 2017 over 50 percent of people voted for parties who opposed no deal and therefore we should have negotiated a closer relationship. 

You can't say all we voted on was to leave or remain one minute and the next say that we voted on sovereignty. I didn't see sovereignty on the paper the same as immigration or the economy. 

That's almost exactly right. 

We voted to either leave or remain. There were no other options or choices of how to leave, with what or when.

Sovereignty was part and parcel of leaving, an unavoidable consequence you could say. It's difficult to stay a member of the club after you left it.

There were and are a multitude of things we could do after leaving, we just don't seem to be arsed about doing any of them, perhaps because everyone is afraid of the consequences or simply because they just don't know how to do them.

Your comments about the votes only holds water if you apply proportional representation, but we don't, it's first past the post and "get brexit done" was a landslide that wiped out the opposition. 

Just my opinion..... but what screwed it for remain and renegotiate politicians was their initial open agreement to honour the decision of the people.... talk about painting yourself into a corner, they did it then set the house on fire.

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Just read in todays Guardian that in the government`s desperation to get a trade deal with india that we are preparing to make immigration easier from there for some of the 1.4 billion residents.

Pritti Patel is thought to be against it, no irony there of course.

I can`t see this playing out well with many brexit backing folk.

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14 hours ago, bycars rob said:

Just read in todays Guardian that in the government`s desperation to get a trade deal with india that we are preparing to make immigration easier from there for some of the 1.4 billion residents.

Pritti Patel is thought to be against it, no irony there of course.

I can`t see this playing out well with many brexit backing folk.

India has a great track record in education...especially in engineering and technology. I think 6 of the biggest tech companies in the world are all ran by Indian born people now. No coincidence.

 

I'm sure I've posted on here before that India proves how broken our immigration system was. Unlimited unskilled workers from infinitely poorer countries could migrate to richer nations at will. Yet we had a limit on how many highly skilled people from places like India we would accept? 

 

Our immigration policies should be designed to improve the country. If we need engineers and technology expertise then so be it. If we need lorry drivers or nurses, fine. If we need fruit pickers, fine. We don't need unlimited amounts of cheap unskilled labour currently, but if we ever do, we can amend the policies as the Government has already done for the above.

 

Priti Patel was born in the UK to Ugandan parents by the way. Her grandparents were Indian though.

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On 30/12/2021 at 14:32, ginge said:

Yes we voted to leave the eu, i accept that, but how we would leave did not vote on. 17 million people voted for countless of options. I do recall there being a poll saying people were in favour of staying in the single market and a lot of the big name brexiteers also said we would remain in the single market or have a Norway style agreement. The likes of Raab, Hannan and Farage... 

And I recall there being one leave/remain referendum, not 5. Using your logic you could flip it and say that in 2017 over 50 percent of people voted for parties who opposed no deal and therefore we should have negotiated a closer relationship. 

You can't say all we voted on was to leave or remain one minute and the next say that we voted on sovereignty. I didn't see sovereignty on the paper the same as immigration or the economy. 

 

You are twisting my words again.

 

I never said there were 5 referendums did I? I think that's as clear as I can make it what I was referring too.

 

We both know that the whole "we didn't vote how we would leave" is a way for remainers to try and keep us in the EU. We voted to leave. The default position of that is that we leave the EU. It's very clear. 

If we could then negotiate, cherry pick the parts of the EU that we want to keep, great, but we had to do that from the default position of being outside it. That's what we voted for.

 

We elected the conservative party with a massive majority in 2019 based on their manifesto of being outside of the single market. You can twist the UK electoral system all you want but the result was an 82 seat majority that almost no one saw coming. It was conclusive. Brexit supporting parties won election after election. In fact, the only time there wasn't a decisive victory for the brexit supporters was the 2017 general election - a hung parliament - which was the "softer" of the two tory brexit manifestos by far.

 

As for your last line...I can absolutely say that more than you can say any alternative. Why on earth should the losers of a referendum get to choose the metric of success? That makes zero sense. The main metric of success should be....did it deliver the thing that the highest number of people wanted it to? 

 

How can it be anything else?

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On 31/12/2021 at 00:18, Beamish said:

Oh, but we have sovereignty!! 😂😂😂

Screenshot_20211231_001512_com.twitter.android.jpg

 

Laughing at the idea of sovereignty is so insane to me. It's like scoffing at the idea of liberty. Why wouldn't you want it? In fact, has a remainer ever actually explained why a lack of sovereignty is good?

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15 hours ago, Regal Beagle said:

 

You are twisting my words again.

 

I never said there were 5 referendums did I? I think that's as clear as I can make it what I was referring too.

 

These are your words :

As it stands, we voted to be outside of the EU. We voted about 5 times on this if you count byelections,

 

Did we vote to be outside the EU 5 times? The answer is no. We voted on that once in a referendum. Leave or Remain. And Leave had the biggest share with 52 percent. That is the fact. Anything else is simply your opinion. The same as my opinion would be something else. 

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17 hours ago, ginge said:

These are your words :

As it stands, we voted to be outside of the EU. We voted about 5 times on this if you count byelections,

 

Did we vote to be outside the EU 5 times? The answer is no. We voted on that once in a referendum. Leave or Remain. And Leave had the biggest share with 52 percent. That is the fact. Anything else is simply your opinion. The same as my opinion would be something else. 

"if you count byelections, referendum, EU elections general elections"

 

I'm not responsible for you choosing to misinterpret my post.

 

I'm not responsible for you selectively quoting me to change the meaning of what I actually said.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Regal Beagle said:

"if you count byelections, referendum, EU elections general elections"

 

I'm not responsible for you choosing to misinterpret my post.

 

I'm not responsible for you selectively quoting me to change the meaning of what I actually said.

 

 

We voted on remain/leave once. That is a fact. If you want to interpret that other elections mean one thing then that's your opinion, the same as in my opinion we should have left the EU with a close trade deal as majority of people voted in the GE for parties who oppose no deal in their manifestos. But the question of leave or remain was put to the public directly once. That is a fact that many brexiteers and remainers will agree on. Everything else is an opinion of how you want to interpret elections which are also influenced by various other issues. 

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On 02/01/2022 at 21:02, Regal Beagle said:

Laughing at the idea of sovereignty is so insane to me. It's like scoffing at the idea of liberty. Why wouldn't you want it? In fact, has a remainer ever actually explained why a lack of sovereignty is good?

Regal,  What aspect or portion of sovereignty did the UK get back that made regaining sovereignty such a big win for the UK on leaving the EU. 

In or out of the EU the UK is still a signatory to may treaties which are written agreements made between nations that are governed by international law eg the UN Refugee Convention of 1951 etc.  So the UK Sovereign/Government cannot do as it pleases even it it's own lands hence it could be considered it doesn't have full sovereignty even now despite leaving the EU.  

The way things are panning out the UK could possibly lose sovereignty over Scotland and/or Northern Ireland due to Brexit. 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Paul6754 said:

Regal,  What aspect or portion of sovereignty did the UK get back that made regaining sovereignty such a big win for the UK on leaving the EU. 

In or out of the EU the UK is still a signatory to may treaties which are written agreements made between nations that are governed by international law eg the UN Refugee Convention of 1951 etc.  So the UK Sovereign/Government cannot do as it pleases even it it's own lands hence it could be considered it doesn't have full sovereignty even now despite leaving the EU.  

The way things are panning out the UK could possibly lose sovereignty over Scotland and/or Northern Ireland due to Brexit. 

 

 

We could have a long discussion about treaties and their value and who where and how they can be enforced, but that's a very large distraction.

Treaties are only any good in 2 circumstances.

1. When parties to the treaty are in agreement and comply willingly.

2. When someone is willing to apply the treaty with force.

The first is simple, everyone is happy with the agreement/contract/treaty..... until they are not.

The second is far more complicated. 

The problem isn't whether the UK has sovereignty or not but what people think sovereignty is  and why the government isn't doing what they expected them to do when they got it.

 

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Some more great news regarding the fishing industry.Despite Brexit,Brixham managed to land £43.6million of seafood beating their £35.8m in 2020 and their £40.3m record from 2017.

We look forward to more records.

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