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Beyond Brexit - A new dawn? A leap of faith?


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On 24/12/2021 at 10:42, WV said:

That is obvious to most but some just dig their heels in because they cannot handle being wrong. Anyone trying to argue that Brexit is an overwhelming success needs their bonce looking at.

 

People wanted to leave the EU, they wanted the UK to regain sovereignty for our laws and policy making. We now have that.

 

So based on the number one reason people voted for brexit, it is a success.

 

We also have to remember that being outside of the EU gave us an absolutely massive advantage in the vaccination race early on, literally saving lives, the direct opposite of the lies that remainers bought into - brexit being a "death cult" that would mean we would not be able to get medication.

 

So it does depend on the metrics you use and how honest you are.

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20 minutes ago, Regal Beagle said:

 

People wanted to leave the EU, they wanted the UK to regain sovereignty for our laws and policy making. We now have that.

 

So based on the number one reason people voted for brexit, it is a success.

 

We also have to remember that being outside of the EU gave us an absolutely massive advantage in the vaccination race early on, literally saving lives, the direct opposite of the lies that remainers bought into - brexit being a "death cult" that would mean we would not be able to get medication.

 

So it does depend on the metrics you use and how honest you are.

Brexit was voted in because of the false promises about controlling our borders which nearly 6 years on we have still failed to do 

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46 minutes ago, Regal Beagle said:

 

People wanted to leave the EU, they wanted the UK to regain sovereignty for our laws and policy making. We now have that.

 

So based on the number one reason people voted for brexit, it is a success.

 

We also have to remember that being outside of the EU gave us an absolutely massive advantage in the vaccination race early on, literally saving lives, the direct opposite of the lies that remainers bought into - brexit being a "death cult" that would mean we would not be able to get medication.

 

So it does depend on the metrics you use and how honest you are.

It really didn't give us any advantage in the vaccination though. That just isn't true. How did Hungary, a member of the EU offer vaccination at the same time as us if what you are saying is true? What was the date of our first vaccination? And Hungarys? It would be good if people didn't re write history to suit. 

I guess it depends on how honest you are

 

 

For a guy who doesn't think Covid is the cause for most of the deaths recorded how can you now say that starting vaccinations a week earlier than Hungary saved lots of lives? You don't seem to know what you believe, seems like you spin anything and everything to suit your argument without and care for what you have said previously. Based on that I don't think you actually have a point of view, you just like to be contrarian whatever the subject, whether that be covid, brexit, Smurf or v2001. 

 

However quick we were to start this is not continued success now over the EU if we are comparing. 

Actually our uptake is one of the worst in the continent now somewhere around 70%. This is a failure and could be attributed to why our numbers are so high, forget high testing numbers, let's look at the percentage of positive tests to tests taken. We are at the bottom of that league. But still, YAY Brexit, it is so successful. 

 

 

Edited by WV

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1 hour ago, WV said:

It really didn't give us any advantage in the vaccination though. That just isn't true. How did Hungary, a member of the EU offer vaccination at the same time as us if what you are saying is true? What was the date of our first vaccination? And Hungarys? It would be good if people didn't re write history to suit. 

I guess it depends on how honest you are

 

 

For a guy who doesn't think Covid is the cause for most of the deaths recorded how can you now say that starting vaccinations a week earlier than Hungary saved lots of lives? You don't seem to know what you believe, seems like you spin anything and everything to suit your argument without and care for what you have said previously. Based on that I don't think you actually have a point of view, you just like to be contrarian whatever the subject, whether that be covid, brexit, Smurf or v2001. 

 

However quick we were to start this is not continued success now over the EU if we are comparing. 

Actually our uptake is one of the worst in the continent now somewhere around 70%. This is a failure and could be attributed to why our numbers are so high, forget high testing numbers, let's look at the percentage of positive tests to tests taken. We are at the bottom of that league. But still, YAY Brexit, it is so successful. 

 

 

Some more straw manning from WV. It's expected albeit very boring now.

 

Please don't tell me what I believe, especially when you are wrong about so much. I'm not even going to address that constructively as it will just legitimise your dishonest deflection tactics.

 

A very quick google shows that Orban went his own way on vaccines, they approved the China and Russian vaccinations before the EU had approved any. So your best defence on this is evidence is an EU country that went against the EU?

 

Hey, don't take my word for it, why not Ursula?:

Quote

Attempting to justify why the EU signed deals for Covid vaccines weeks or months after the UK, she said on Friday that countries acting alone are 'like a speedboat' while the EU 'is more of a tanker.'

After a week which saw von der Leyen threaten drug-maker AstraZeneca over deliveries of its jab, she was also forced to admit 'underestimating' problems in how the vaccines would be produced and rolled out. 

 

I'm pretty sure I've used the speedboat analogy more than once, going back a few years, on this forum. So lets not talk about re-writing history or pretending this is a brand new thing that no one had foreseen.

 

This is EXACTLY why I wanted to leave the EU. To approve the vaccinations, they had to pass it though their council and have it signed off by representatives of the 27 member states. But in fairness to them, at least they were properly <ovf censored> in a "unified" way:

 

Quote

 

But she continued to insist that having the EU negotiate on behalf of the 27-member bloc was still the right thing to do.

'I can't even imagine what it would have meant for Europe, in terms of unity, if one or more Member States had access to vaccines and not the others,' she said. 

Europe's vaccine roll-out has been plagued by delays and delivery problems that has seen the continent vaccinate just over 2 per cent of its population so far, compared to more than 14 per cent in the UK and 8 per cent in the US.

 

 

They're so much into "unity" that they had to threaten AZ and Pfizer with being raided and having their products seized, they threatened the UK with trade sanctions if we didn't agree to give up our own procured vaccinations.

 

It's pretty clear cut I'm afraid. We told you that the EU acts in this way. They're not a trading bloc, they're a political protection ring acting like a sovereign nation ran by power hungry and corrupt politicians who often fail in politics in their own country. 

 

Fair play for even trying to swerve this one, but this was the main reason we voted out. Whenever James O'Brien moved his goalposts on the "what law would you change" - that was never the question, the question was about creating our own laws, controlling our own destiny. The vaccine roll out proved that it can and does work.

 

 

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3 minutes ago, Regal Beagle said:

Some more straw manning from WV. It's expected albeit very boring now.

 

Please don't tell me what I believe, especially when you are wrong about so much. I'm not even going to address that constructively as it will just legitimise your dishonest deflection tactics.

 

A very quick google shows that Orban went his own way on vaccines, they approved the China and Russian vaccinations before the EU had approved any. So your best defence on this is evidence is an EU country that went against the EU?

 

Hey, don't take my word for it, why not Ursula?:

 

I'm pretty sure I've used the speedboat analogy more than once, going back a few years, on this forum. So lets not talk about re-writing history or pretending this is a brand new thing that no one had foreseen.

 

This is EXACTLY why I wanted to leave the EU. To approve the vaccinations, they had to pass it though their council and have it signed off by representatives of the 27 member states. But in fairness to them, at least they were properly <ovf censored> in a "unified" way:

 

 

They're so much into "unity" that they had to threaten AZ and Pfizer with being raided and having their products seized, they threatened the UK with trade sanctions if we didn't agree to give up our own procured vaccinations.

 

It's pretty clear cut I'm afraid. We told you that the EU acts in this way. They're not a trading bloc, they're a political protection ring acting like a sovereign nation ran by power hungry and corrupt politicians who often fail in politics in their own country. 

 

Fair play for even trying to swerve this one, but this was the main reason we voted out. Whenever James O'Brien moved his goalposts on the "what law would you change" - that was never the question, the question was about creating our own laws, controlling our own destiny. The vaccine roll out proved that it can and does work.

 

 

You made it sound very much like the EU would not have let us do our own thing with the vaccine. It seems that they didn't stop Hungary. 

 

So just to clarify...you could do your own thing without the EU permission then?

Edited by WV

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2 hours ago, Coyney Valiant said:

Brexit was voted in because of the false promises about controlling our borders which nearly 6 years on we have still failed to do 

Immigration was a big talking point yes, although it wasn't the main reason people voted for brexit (which was sovereignty).

 

Secondly, we have a points based immigration system now which is what I believe most brexiteers were in favour of. That is now a UK policy and can be amended either way via general elections. We are no longer bound by any laws and if we want a freeer immigration policy, we can vote for one, if we want a stricter one, we can vote for one.

 

The failure to deal with the channel crossings, if that is what you refer too, is a disaster and a failure of the promises of the current government, rather than brexit itself.

 

 

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Just now, WV said:

You made it sound very much like the EU would not have let us do our own thing with the vaccine. It seems that they didn't stop Hungary. 

I didn't. You read it that way because it's the only way you can possibly disagree with my post.

 

One of my absolute favourite tactics of remainers was when they said "oh but we can just veto that". We already had the most vetos. Now your arguing for why we should veto even more stuff. 

 

You know what WV. I fully agree with you, we shouldn't follow the EU and we should go our own way, as should Hungary, as should everyone else.

 

 

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8 minutes ago, Regal Beagle said:

I didn't. You read it that way because it's the only way you can possibly disagree with my post.

 

One of my absolute favourite tactics of remainers was when they said "oh but we can just veto that". We already had the most vetos. Now your arguing for why we should veto even more stuff. 

 

You know what WV. I fully agree with you, we shouldn't follow the EU and we should go our own way, as should Hungary, as should everyone else.

 

 

"We also have to remember that being outside of the EU gave us an absolutely massive advantage in the vaccination race early on"

So an advantage we had purely just from leaving was that we could crack on with our vaccination program? But we could have done that without leaving anyway then as done by EU member Hungary? Is that right?

Edited by WV
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4 hours ago, WV said:

"We also have to remember that being outside of the EU gave us an absolutely massive advantage in the vaccination race early on"

So an advantage we had purely just from leaving was that we could crack on with our vaccination program? But we could have done that without leaving anyway then as done by EU member Hungary? Is that right?

And the UK could have done the same with any issue, unfortunately it didn't have the politicians with the balls to stand up to the EU even though it had 16 billion Pounds/year of negotiating power. 

The UK has little negotiating power now with the EU/France over the channel migrant crisis whereas before Brexit it had plenty and a seat at the table.

I am a Remainer mainly because it's crazy to take such chances with a country's economy but at the end of the day judgement on whether it's a success or not is going to take many, many years.

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5 hours ago, Regal Beagle said:

Immigration was a big talking point yes, although it wasn't the main reason people voted for brexit (which was sovereignty).

 

Secondly, we have a points based immigration system now which is what I believe most brexiteers were in favour of. That is now a UK policy and can be amended either way via general elections. We are no longer bound by any laws and if we want a freeer immigration policy, we can vote for one, if we want a stricter one, we can vote for one.

 

The failure to deal with the channel crossings, if that is what you refer too, is a disaster and a failure of the promises of the current government, rather than brexit itself.

 

 

And majority of people wanted to stay in the single market and keep our free trade deals with out closest neighbours but that didn't happen. Is that a failure?

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14 hours ago, ginge said:

And majority of people wanted to stay in the single market and keep our free trade deals with out closest neighbours but that didn't happen. Is that a failure?

Yes of course. The EU is fantastic if it's a trading bloc. But it isn't. The cost of being in the single market is you lose your sovereignty. As Switzerland are about to find out, as we found out. 

 

So if there was a way for us to be a sovereign nation and be in the single market, everyone would have voted for it. But there isn't, because the EU make the rules and that is what they've decided.

 

As it stands, we voted to be outside of the EU. We voted about 5 times on this if you count byelections, referendum, EU elections general elections. It's literally the most secure democratic decision we've ever made in this country. We didn't vote for anything else. We didn't vote for "absolutely no negative economic consequences" and we didn't vote for "fewer immigrants" or anything else that you lot want to misrepresent. We voted to leave the EU.

 

Everything from then on, is up for debate domestically.

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20 hours ago, WV said:

"We also have to remember that being outside of the EU gave us an absolutely massive advantage in the vaccination race early on"

So an advantage we had purely just from leaving was that we could crack on with our vaccination program? But we could have done that without leaving anyway then as done by EU member Hungary? Is that right?

Yeah in theory. Why do you think only Hungary did it though? And they had to approve the Chinese and Russian vaccinations and still couldn't beat our early rollout of the AZ and Pfizer vaccines.

 

As for the rest, I refer you to the post you quoted. Your best example of why we should be in the EU in this matter is a country that directly went against the EU and supposedly did better for it. Is that right?

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22 hours ago, Coyney Valiant said:

Brexit was voted in because of the false promises about controlling our borders which nearly 6 years on we have still failed to do 

In the EU, we had a border with France, France did not have a border with Germany.

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