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Beyond Brexit - A new dawn? A leap of faith?


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1 hour ago, Loggerheads Sage said:

I didn't say it was a referendum? I said we had the chance to change to a pr system if that's what the majority of people wanted. The public did not make that change. 

Not sure why you bought Brexit in to your reply? I was replying to a quote saying that we don't live in a democracy because we don't have pr. Pointing out that we have chosen not to go down that route. 

The advisory point is interesting. It was not generally thought of as only being advisory before the referendum.  I remember receiving,  as everyone did, a letter off Cameron saying hm govt would enact whatever the people chose,  ie.  Leave or remain. 

He quit the next day!!

The Government did have the choice to not honour the referendum result but that would be seen to be more undemocratic and there would be a bigger divide than there is now. The truth is the result went against what 48% of the population voted for and a certain percentage of those cannot and will not accept the result.

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I didn't say it was a referendum? I said we had the chance to change to a pr system if that's what the majority of people wanted. The public did not make that change. 
Not sure why you bought Brexit in to your reply? I was replying to a quote saying that we don't live in a democracy because we don't have pr. Pointing out that we have chosen not to go down that route. 
The advisory point is interesting. It was not generally thought of as only being advisory before the referendum.  I remember receiving,  as everyone did, a letter off Cameron saying hm govt would enact whatever the people chose,  ie.  Leave or remain. 
He quit the next day!!
Not thought of except quoted in the reading of the bill in Parliament, that was where the conn started. There was a referendum on a voting method. Another conn.

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48 minutes ago, philpvfc said:

The Government did have the choice to not honour the referendum result but that would be seen to be more undemocratic and there would be a bigger divide than there is now. The truth is the result went against what 48% of the population voted for and a certain percentage of those cannot and will not accept the result.

I think the problem is a lot of people who voted leave feel conned and I include myself in that bojo and his mate lied to voters and I’m embarrassed to say I fell for it and I know we can’t have another vote but if we did I’m sure we would vote to remain 

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On 19/10/2021 at 17:31, Fosse69 said:

Not of their own accord. 

According to the Telegraph,a senior member of the ruling party has said that Poland could adopt "a dirty remainer" strategy to bring the EU's policy machine to a grinding halt in retaliation for any move to punish Warsaw?

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3 minutes ago, For Us All said:

According to the Telegraph,a senior member of the ruling party has said that Poland could adopt "a dirty remainer" strategy to bring the EU's policy machine to a grinding halt in retaliation for any move to punish Warsaw?

Up to the people to rid themselves of tyrants 

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Elections are really very simple. Each party offers what they think you want to hear so they can get control.

When they have control they deliver what they want which very rarely resembles what they offered/promised.

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1 hour ago, Coyney Valiant said:

I think the problem is a lot of people who voted leave feel conned and I include myself in that bojo and his mate lied to voters and I’m embarrassed to say I fell for it and I know we can’t have another vote but if we did I’m sure we would vote to remain 

Well said that man, they lied then, and they are still lying now 

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30 minutes ago, tommytunstall said:

True to an extent, but this Government have taken it to another level 

As an expat living in Finland, we have trust here in the political system. When I compare with those in the UK, frankly British politicians are embarrassing. 

Unfortunately there is a lot of money in UK politics and I suspect this is the root cause, in that politicians will say and do anything to get a slice of that rather big pie.

Unfortunately, after so many decades of this kind of lying culture, the people get apathetic towards it, which of course just serves to make things worse.

I feel that if you take the money out of politics, not that it would ever happen of course, then you'll take out most if not all of those that have made a living out of it by simply telling whoppers.

Edited by VantaaVale
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On 24/10/2021 at 09:32, philpvfc said:

The Government did have the choice to not honour the referendum result but that would be seen to be more undemocratic and there would be a bigger divide than there is now. The truth is the result went against what 48% of the population voted for and a certain percentage of those cannot and will not accept the result.

I don't think that's right. I think practically all remainers accept the result but they don't like it.

If you're one of those that moaned about The EU all those years then I think it's a bit rich to complain about Pro EU people moaning about Brexit.

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8 hours ago, hillmanhunter said:

I don't think that's right. I think practically all remainers accept the result but they don't like it.

If you're one of those that moaned about The EU all those years then I think it's a bit rich to complain about Pro EU people moaning about Brexit.

I don’t know of anyone who constantly moaned about the EU before Cameron announced a referendum, there was nothing on the OVF forums so I guess it gives myself and anyone on here the right to complain about remoaners. 

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On 22/10/2021 at 19:13, WV said:

I don't make my own mind up on things I have no expertise on. The majority of scientists disagree with the handful you and LV quote. You can quote all your youtube videos of celebs who have no expertise all you like but for me if a huge majority of experts say one thing I am likely to make my mind up based on that whereas you made your mind up already and find spurious sources to agree with your own research lol. 

This is truly mindblowing.

 

You admit that you have no expertise and so won't make your own mind up and then castigate me for being wrong for following a "minority" of scientists and "celebs" and "youtubers"?

 

Literally asserting that you are right and I am wrong even though you admit that you don't look into it past a headline of scientific consensus - where is your evidence of that by the way? I mean the WHO have the details of mask efficacy on their website, the studies that are "pro" mask seem seriously flawed to me. The studies that are "anti" mask seem way more scientific.

 

You do also know that the whole point of science is to test things? not just to come up with a consensus and stick to it rigidly? You are literally saying follow the science whilst at the same time being anti-science.

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On 23/10/2021 at 00:26, ginge said:

The vote was whether we want to stay in the EU or leave. The vote did not specify what leave actually entailed. However what was promised by big name brexiteers was that we would stay in the single market and have a Norway style deal. That seems not to be the case. 

As for Corbyn on brexit (arguably his downfall) if i remember right the last time he actually voiced his opinion of brexit was on the last leg when he said he was 7/10 in favour of the EU. Either way not sure what Corbyn has to do with the point. 

If we vote for a party that makes a new law on stopping river pollution, a more stringent law than the EU have then yes that would be a brexit positive of making our own laws. Would that happen though? At the moment in our undemocratic country and undemocratic voting system it looks unlikely. We have the crony tories who think it's ok to dump raw sewage into our rivers. They have had an opportunity to make a law on it as we are free to do that aren't we? 

1. So you do know what the brexit vote is, you are just imposing a set of straw man like success conditions on it so that you are able to demonstrate that it has failed. It's always the same with you lot, you actually do know the truth, it's just damaging to your cause so that's why you are so averse.

 

2. I explained why it is relevant in my post.

 

3. That's good to know. Again, demonstrates my first point in this post, you do actually recognise that this stuff isn't the fault of brexit, it's the government, it's just that you want to be able to claim that brexit has failed and so you have to deliberately misinterpret the referendum to be able to say that.

 

Can we not just stop the pretence?

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On 24/10/2021 at 12:20, tommytunstall said:

Well said that man, they lied then, and they are still lying now 

Don't be too surprised,didn't you know that according to the woke brigade everybody is now allowed to speak their own truth!! 🤔

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On 26/10/2021 at 11:12, Regal Beagle said:

This is truly mindblowing.

 

You admit that you have no expertise and so won't make your own mind up and then castigate me for being wrong for following a "minority" of scientists and "celebs" and "youtubers"?

 

Literally asserting that you are right and I am wrong even though you admit that you don't look into it past a headline of scientific consensus - where is your evidence of that by the way? I mean the WHO have the details of mask efficacy on their website, the studies that are "pro" mask seem seriously flawed to me. The studies that are "anti" mask seem way more scientific.

 

You do also know that the whole point of science is to test things? not just to come up with a consensus and stick to it rigidly? You are literally saying follow the science whilst at the same time being anti-science.

What another load of <ovf censored>. I didn't realise you yourself were a scientist. In science, as with most things in life, but especially in science, when there is a 99% majority on something, they are usually right.

 

99% of people on here think you chat <ovf censored>. Take of that what you will Regal boy

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6 hours ago, WV said:

What another load of <ovf censored>. I didn't realise you yourself were a scientist. In science, as with most things in life, but especially in science, when there is a 99% majority on something, they are usually right.

 

99% of people on here think you chat <ovf censored>. Take of that what you will Regal boy

Wow, the mask is slipping! How very covid unsafe of you 😂

 

1. Make an unfounded assertion

2. Use some terrible logic as to why my post can be dismissed without having to engage with any of the points I make

3. Insults and/or smears

 

A familiar pattern 😂

 

Maybe take a break from this forum if you don't want to contribute. 99% of reasonable posters on here think that being so quick to resort to insults is evidence that you are getting smashed up in a debate*

 

 

*I may have made that up, similar to the ones you have just made up.

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On 25/10/2021 at 18:34, philpvfc said:

I don’t know of anyone who constantly moaned about the EU before Cameron announced a referendum, there was nothing on the OVF forums so I guess it gives myself and anyone on here the right to complain about remoaners. 

The Sun, the most widely read newspaper in the country, spent years moaning about the EU and publishing all sorts of rubbish about straight bananas, the euro sausage, renaming fish and chips in Latin and other complete rubbish.  And Barmy Boris played his part. If you don't remember anyone moaning about the EU prior to the Referendum you weren't paying attention.

 

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