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Beyond Brexit - A new dawn? A leap of faith?


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4 hours ago, philpvfc said:

He wouldn’t know what sovereignty or democracy is if it slapped him in the face. 

How is our current system the slightest bit democratic?  Why the aggressive tone? Has all the bile and hatred from the Sun/mail/GB News wound you up or something? 

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45 minutes ago, ginge said:

How is our current system the slightest bit democratic?  Why the aggressive tone? Has all the bile and hatred from the Sun/mail/GB News wound you up or something? 

I’m not bitter, I accept democratic results plus I don’t read the Sun or Mail and never watched GB news. 

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6 hours ago, philpvfc said:

I’m not bitter, I accept democratic results plus I don’t read the Sun or Mail and never watched GB news. 

So if you accept democratic results I assume you are a fan of proportional representation.

If you don't read the sun or mail then how do you know the guardian or mirror isn't any better than the sun/mail? How are you able to make an opinion on them if you don't read them? Also you were very quick to defend them.

 

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2 hours ago, ginge said:

So if you accept democratic results I assume you are a fan of proportional representation.

If you don't read the sun or mail then how do you know the guardian or mirror isn't any better than the sun/mail? How are you able to make an opinion on them if you don't read them? Also you were very quick to defend them.

 

Unless you/someone can come up with a completely different system i'm not in favour of proportional representation. 

If an independent stood in every constituency and collectively gained enough to take 2 seats which 2 would you choose?

If everyone in stoke voted Labour but were represented by a Tory under PR, would they accept it?

You don't have to read newspapers to understand they have an agenda and bias....... but it helps if you want to know what they are.

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Unless you/someone can come up with a completely different system i'm not in favour of proportional representation. 
If an independent stood in every constituency and collectively gained enough to take 2 seats which 2 would you choose?
If everyone in stoke voted Labour but were represented by a Tory under PR, would they accept it?
You don't have to read newspapers to understand they have an agenda and bias....... but it helps if you want to know what they are.
Very few countries use FPTP, we changed the German system after the war to prevent another Hitler. But we kept central control from London and later Thatcher took all the power away from the councils. So that now all money/policy is controlled from London, whereas Germany is split into 18 states with the power to have local choices.


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4 hours ago, ginge said:

So if you accept democratic results I assume you are a fan of proportional representation.

If you don't read the sun or mail then how do you know the guardian or mirror isn't any better than the sun/mail? How are you able to make an opinion on them if you don't read them? Also you were very quick to defend them.

 

You may be a fan of proportional representation, i am not totally against it but cannot see how it would really work but either way, our current system is not perfect but as said many times it is democratic. 
I never said the Mail or The Sun were a better paper, I merely asked the question. I can only guess you must read them regularly to keep slating them.

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4 minutes ago, philpvfc said:

You may be a fan of proportional representation, i am not totally against it but cannot see how it would really work but either way, our current system is not perfect but as said many times it is democratic. 
I never said the Mail or The Sun were a better paper, I merely asked the question. I can only guess you must read them regularly to keep slating them.

No you didn't say that they were better however you made a comment comparing them to the Guardian and Mirror. If you do not read them how can you have a base to compare? No I don't read them regularly. However as you can see I posted an article from theirs so clearly I do read some things... then immediately regard what I've read for the crap that it is. 

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2 hours ago, geosname said:

Unless you/someone can come up with a completely different system i'm not in favour of proportional representation. 

If an independent stood in every constituency and collectively gained enough to take 2 seats which 2 would you choose?

If everyone in stoke voted Labour but were represented by a Tory under PR, would they accept it?

You don't have to read newspapers to understand they have an agenda and bias....... but it helps if you want to know what they are.

Not my job to come up with a system. I do not have the credentials. And I agree that there are pros and cons of every system. Unfortunately for the democracy of our country ours is riddled with cons. 

Regarding newspaper agenda you're spot on- it helps if you know what the agenda is. If you don't you end up being brainwashed with lies. Unfortunately some people take everything at face value or see a misleading headline and do no background research.

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2 hours ago, geosname said:

Unless you/someone can come up with a completely different system i'm not in favour of proportional representation. 

If an independent stood in every constituency and collectively gained enough to take 2 seats which 2 would you choose?

If everyone in stoke voted Labour but were represented by a Tory under PR, would they accept it?

You don't have to read newspapers to understand they have an agenda and bias....... but it helps if you want to know what they are.

Not my job to come up with a system. I do not have the credentials. And I agree that there are pros and cons of every system. Unfortunately for the democracy of our country ours is riddled with cons. 

Regarding newspaper agenda you're spot on- it helps if you know what the agenda is. If you don't you end up being brainwashed with lies. Unfortunately some people take everything at face value or see a misleading headline and do no background research.

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14 hours ago, sunny boslem said:

U seriously read that?? 

Yes. It's an important question. Does immigration influence crime rates? So at least one study has been done and peer reviewed by experts before being allowed to be published. That's a lot of work needed. A lot more work than Farage needs to film himself shouting at dinghies.  

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Hi,

Please do not engage in racist language on this thread or any other threads on the forum. It against our forum rules to name just one reason.

A user has now been banned for racist posts.

Other users may find their posts have also been removed, not through any fault of their own, but because their replies quoted the now removed racist post.

Thanks,

Rob

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32 minutes ago, ginge said:

Not my job to come up with a system. I do not have the credentials. And I agree that there are pros and cons of every system. Unfortunately for the democracy of our country ours is riddled with cons. 

Regarding newspaper agenda you're spot on- it helps if you know what the agenda is. If you don't you end up being brainwashed with lies. Unfortunately some people take everything at face value or see a misleading headline and do no background research.

99% of the time the agenda is to sell you something. Whether it's tv news, papers, political parties, companies etc etc

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22 hours ago, WV said:

So we voted to leave and not be governed by unelected ministers? Are you sure that is not happening right now as well in this country? 

Nice anecdote. 

I assume we will see a Spexit, ITexit and Frexit if you are right, which I expect as usual you are not. 

A lot of words to your post but not much substance, bit like usual really. 

Another bit of sleight of hand here. 

 

You have twisted my comment....We want our law makers to be sovereign into an absolute "brexit is about being against unelected ministers" It's far more complex than that. But to be as simplistic as I possibly can, we did not want to be governed by unelected and unaccountable people who do not live in this country, have only an indirect interest in the success of this country, no accountability to the UK electorate and conflicts of interest between 27 other countries. As has been said on here, 100 times.

 

If you want to debate whether or not the UK constitution should become more or less democratic, more or less transparent with regards to the power of unelected people, that's great. And do you know what? Brexit allows for that debate. That's the irony of remainers not actually having a principled and logical argument - they throw mud at the wall hoping it sticks and then it turns out they've been throwing paint all along, and now it's a beautiful brexit feature wall 🤣

 

Remember 5 years ago when Remain = status quo and Brexit = radical change? Now you are telling us that Brexit = status quo and the implication is therefore that we should have stayed in the EU? I don't understand.

 

No substance to my post but you've not been able to comeback on any of the points I made except for one, which you twisted to mean something else? Hmmm not sure.

 

 

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21 hours ago, ginge said:

How are we sovereign when a majority government who were voted by a minority of the public can get through whatever they want? Until we have proportional representation and our votes made equal this country will continue to be run in an undemocratic way. And currently our system is favouring the corrupt elite. 

It's interesting that you believe our votes mean very little in this country but that you are very pro-EU where our votes meant next to nothing?

 

Also, sovereignty and democracy are two different things entirely. 

 

The PR/FPTP argument is an interesting one, there are pros and cons of each. I flip flop between them and don't really have a strong opinion either way, although I'd probably be in favour of PR currently.

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, Fosse69 said:

Very few countries use FPTP, we changed the German system after the war to prevent another Hitler. But we kept central control from London and later Thatcher took all the power away from the councils. So that now all money/policy is controlled from London, whereas Germany is split into 18 states with the power to have local choices.

 

It would be agreeable to get some accountability locally. We would, I think, still get the usual shin kicking contests at election times.

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