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Beyond Brexit - A new dawn? A leap of faith?


Aussie Rules
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6 minutes ago, Fosse69 said:

"We were lead to believe"    Nail on the head.

We should of got what we voted for if our government are weak and didn’t get the deal we wanted we should of left with no deal we’re now being bullied by them we need toughen up 

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3 hours ago, WV said:

Morning sunny. 

How would you feel if we had rows of bars flying the Spanish flag selling Spanish breakfasts, showing Spanish TV shows while the Spaniards that frequented them got drunk, sweated all over the place and caused trouble fighting every night? I guess you would be perfectly ok with that ? Oh I forgot, all while refusing to become British citizens or pay British tax. I can only imagine you would be perfectly happy with that scenario happening here?

Afternoon VW 

no mate my first comment was made before I knew they had refused to become residents etc 

There is 359000 who ain’t being made to come home so the headline posted is just to make brexit look bad 

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2 hours ago, Andyregs said:

Your argument here is that the Spanish don’t enforce every single rule written in the law books? Once again you’re trying to push the conversation for unknown reasons into irrelevance. 

The relevance is that rules were in place before brexit that were rarely enforced. Since brexit some of those rules are now being enforced.

In my opinion the rules should have been enforced throughout. I don't blame the Spanish authorities for enforcing after but I do for not enforcing before.

Isn't that what the rules are for? Isn't that similar to some of the complaints about immigrants? Shouldn't people follow the rules of the country they choose to live in and shouldn't the authorities enforce those rules to all?

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1 minute ago, geosname said:

The relevance is that rules were in place before brexit that were rarely enforced. Since brexit some of those rules are now being enforced.

In my opinion the rules should have been enforced throughout. I don't blame the Spanish authorities for enforcing after but I do for not enforcing before.

Isn't that what the rules are for? Isn't that similar to some of the complaints about immigrants? Shouldn't people follow the rules of the country they choose to live in and shouldn't the authorities enforce those rules to all?

It’s also illegal to be drunk in a uk pub. 

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12 minutes ago, Andyregs said:

I’m not sure what your point is? 

It's the fact that in the UK we as individuals are allowed to vote in General Elections for various political parties,including their leaders.

Can't remember being invited to vote for any EU parties or politicians for President of the EU.If Boris is still PM in 2024 the electorate can vote him out at the polling station if they so wish by not voting Tory.

How do EU citizens get rid of the EU President if they think she's failed at her job?

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19 minutes ago, sunny boslem said:

Plenty of people say most politicians lie 

This is mental how did I get what I voted for 

why were the remain gang not pointing out that once we leave we lose more control over our borders 

 

It is not possible to control borders without a national ID system, we didn`t bother when in the EU, we have not bothered with Covid and have let people in for the last 12 months. 

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31 minutes ago, sunny boslem said:

And I’ve said countless times on here that I voted leave because we need control our borders 

 

The mad thing is that under the Free Movement Directive (or EU Directive 2004/38/EC, https://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2004:158:0077:0123:en:PDF), gave us this power whilst still a member of the EU:

Quote

“Where admission is permitted, an EU citizen may remain in the UK for up to three months from the date of entry, provided they do not become a burden on the social assistance system of the UK.

If an EU citizen does not meet one of the requirements for residence set out in the Directive [employed, self-employed, self-sufficient, student] then they will not have a right to reside in the UK and may be removed.”

We could legally and with ease deport any EU migrants who weren't actively contributing to our economy via taxes, spending, and student loans whilst a member.

Fundamentally, EU migrants provided a net economic boost to the country, and that's why the government continued to allow them in. If we were that bothered about 'controlling borders', we had every legal right to.

The only argument beyond this is that, whilst being net economic contributors, EU migrants damaged the cliched 'social fabric', and you start getting into very dangerous territory there.

 

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1 minute ago, For Us All said:

It's the fact that in the UK we as individuals are allowed to vote in General Elections for various political parties,including their leaders.

Can't remember being invited to vote for any EU parties or politicians for President of the EU.If Boris is still PM in 2024 the electorate can vote him out at the polling station if they so wish by not voting Tory.

How do EU citizens get rid of the EU President if they think she's failed at her job?

Again, we don’t vote for a prime minister in the uk. You were never invited to vote for a prime minister in the uk. And you are allowed to vote for an mep of political parties. 

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In addition, whilst the vaccine rollout is a success and the procurement process from the government, the regulation by the relevant bodies, and the delivery by NHS and volunteers has to be massively commended, we could have done this all within the European Union, and retained the economic benefits of doing so.

No Member State of the EU was obliged to take part in the joint procurement scheme, and there is no legal grounding to force a Member State to join. Four countries actually did some procurement before the EC took over, but were persuaded to join the overall procurement scheme (which they'll regret now).

All the EU has legal grounding to do, according to its own treaties, is:

Quote

Support, coordinate or supplement the actions of the Member States

Considering our long history of being the outsider in the EU (rebate, Schengen exemption, currency exemption), we could have simply done our own procurement and rollout and there's nothing the EU could do to stop us. As mentioned, Italy, France, Germany, and the Netherlands came very close to an independent procurement process.

Furthermore, our excellently quick approval by the MHRA could also be done unilaterally within the EU, according to Article 5(2) of Directive 2001/83/EC of the European Parliament and Council.

The EU has shown itself to be a big mess, with Von der Leyen being a massive fraud throughout her career, and the electoral desperation of Macron and Merkel not doing them any favours, but I still feel we had a sweet deal with a load of benefits and a load of exemptions from the less pleasant stuff. 

Attribution of the vaccine success to Brexit is not grounded in fact. It has probably simplified the process but we could have done the exact same within the EU.

Edited by Joe B

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30 minutes ago, sunny boslem said:

Plenty of people say most politicians lie 

This is mental how did I get what I voted for 

why were the remain gang not pointing out that once we leave we lose more control over our borders 

 

We don’t lose control. We lose the agreements made with other countries. But you already knew that apparently.

28 minutes ago, sunny boslem said:

We should of got what we voted for if our government are weak and didn’t get the deal we wanted we should of left with no deal we’re now being bullied by them we need toughen up 

In a debate about the EU You used the lines ‘we are now being bullied’ and ‘we need to toughen up’ in the same sentence. We aren’t being bullied, we have the deal we agreed to. Leavers also argued that they didn’t vote for pie in the sky , but now we should still have received this mythical deal that gave us everything we dreamed of. 

19 minutes ago, sunny boslem said:

Afternoon VW 

no mate my first comment was made before I knew they had refused to become residents etc 

There is 359000 who ain’t being made to come home so the headline posted is just to make brexit look bad 

It was to show that people voted against their own interests. Brexit is doing a grand enough job on its own to look bad. 

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6 minutes ago, Joe B said:

In addition, whilst the vaccine rollout is a success and the procurement process from the government, the regulation by the relevant bodies, and the delivery by NHS and volunteers has to be massively commended, we could have done this all within the European Union.

 

Major thanks to the NHS,  Germany is a federation of 16 states with health devolved to the states,  thus lack a national structure and different states have set up different vaccination systems. They have trouble tracing people since they do not use  surgery records,  and concentrate on full doses instead of our 12 week gaps. I wonder who will have the higher death toll?  No doubt other EU countries have taken different routes.

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5 minutes ago, Fosse69 said:

Major thanks to the NHS,  Germany is a federation of 16 states with health devolved to the states,  thus lack a national structure and different states have set up different vaccination systems. They have trouble tracing people since they do not use  surgery records,  and concentrate on full doses instead of our 12 week gaps. I wonder who will have the higher death toll?  No doubt other EU countries have taken different routes.

The centralised health system has paid dividends for us.

I just find it disingenuous to use the vaccine rollout as evidence of Brexit having net benefits, when at most it merely simplified an existing process of independent procurement, approval, and delivery.

Edited by Joe B

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4 minutes ago, Joe B said:

The centralised health system has paid dividends for us.

I just find it disingenuous to use the vaccine rollout as evidence of Brexit having net benefits, when at most it merely simplified an existing process of independent procurement, approval, and delivery.

Any flag will do when electioneering.

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2 hours ago, sunny boslem said:

Afternoon VW 

no mate my first comment was made before I knew they had refused to become residents etc 

There is 359000 who ain’t being made to come home so the headline posted is just to make brexit look bad 

You didn't fancy a go at answering my question, no? 

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1 hour ago, Andyregs said:

Again, we don’t vote for a prime minister in the uk. You were never invited to vote for a prime minister in the uk. And you are allowed to vote for an mep of political parties. 

I know we don't vote for a prime minister but we are allowed to remove that person by voting against the party they belong to.How do the EU citizens get rid of the President of the EU Commission if they think she has failed them?

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23 minutes ago, For Us All said:

I know we don't vote for a prime minister but we are allowed to remove that person by voting against the party they belong to.How do the EU citizens get rid of the President of the EU Commission if they think she has failed them?

Vote for an mep who will vote for a different president. 

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