General Erection - 12th December 2019

[Regal Beagle]

40 minutes ago, TheSage said:

Is that the paper owned by Murdoch - one of the billionaires who bankrolls the Tories? 

Yes?

[TheSage]

For those in sunnier parts, the terrorist attacker in London was apparently from Tunstall.

Meantime, Johnson has been trying to make political out of the tragic events and Facebook has taken down 8 Tory adverts that they deliberately altered. The truth no longer matters. I think it was the NY Times yesterday that said we'd become like Trump's America - a country that has been poisoned by lies, smears and dishonesty, to the point that voters no longer know the difference between truth and lies, facts and fairy stories. 

[Regal Beagle]

2 hours ago, TheSage said:

For those in sunnier parts, the terrorist attacker in London was apparently from Tunstall.

Meantime, Johnson has been trying to make political out of the tragic events and Facebook has taken down 8 Tory adverts that they deliberately altered. The truth no longer matters. I think it was the NY Times yesterday that said we'd become like Trump's America - a country that has been poisoned by lies, smears and dishonesty, to the point that voters no longer know the difference between truth and lies, facts and fairy stories. 

I think labour chucked the first stone when it came to trying to score points out of the attack. Despicable from both sides really.

 

Also, is the NY times the same one whose largest individual shareholder, Carlos Slim, bankrolled Hillary Clinton's campaign against Trump and has endorsed every single democrat candidate for over 70 years?

 

Is there any reason why your source is better than mine?

 

[mr.hobblesworth]

Liar. Scumbag can't <ovf censored> stop himself.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/dec/01/how-accurate-were-boris-johnsons-assertions-on-andrew-marr

[mr.hobblesworth]

More lies. Most dishonest election campaign ever from the tories. Utter scum.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/dec/01/facebook-bans-tories-distorted-party-advert-with-laura-kuenssberg

[Heatwave]

4 minutes ago, mr.hobblesworth said:

Liar. Scumbag can't <ovf censored> stop himself.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/dec/01/how-accurate-were-boris-johnsons-assertions-on-andrew-marr

They should have firemen on standby at the next Prime Ministerial debate on TV just in case his pants catch fire.

[Heatwave]

5 minutes ago, mr.hobblesworth said:

More lies. Most dishonest election campaign ever from the tories. Utter scum.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/dec/01/facebook-bans-tories-distorted-party-advert-with-laura-kuenssberg

What do you expect when the man running the Tory campaign ran the Brexit campaign, with its claims of £350m savings and Turkey joining the EU? There should be a law against it.

[Howjy04]

Re the London Bridge attack,there was a police officer on one of the debates who stated it was virtually impossible to stop that sort of attack.The armed police were on the scene within 5 minutes.Khan was the first idiot to start the blame game.

[Bycarsbill]

18 hours ago, TheSage said:

I can't let this go unchallenged! You have not refuted my post, given me two alternative facts, but your third one is misleading and bogus.

I accept your first two points, but they are only two economic indicators that pale in comparison with the overwhelming majority of evidence. Yes, the deficit has come down but what good use has been made of it? It's a means to an end not an end in itself. The more important statistic as I said above is GDP growth per head of population - what it means for the man in the street, and that was around 2.5% before the crash. It's 1.2% under the Tories and dropped to around 0.3% last quarter. Very poor.

Employment has increased, yes. And in general terms that is clearly "a good thing". But if you look at the context much of that growth has been in zero hours & low wage jobs. Those on the minimum wage have doubled. It's interesting to note that under the Tories anyone working for just one hour a week is classified as being in work. Amazing what you can do if you massage the figures. 

Fact 3 doesn't stand up to scrutiny. The Tories have let it skyrocket. It went up to 65% by 2010 but now stands at over 80%. In raw figures it has increased from £1.1 to £1.8 trillion - hardly the results of an economically competent government. But then throughout history the Tories always borrow more than Labour.

In overall terms, since 2010 we have had slow/stagnant growth, low investment, manufacturing has flat-lined and we've been saddled with the economic stupidity of Brexit - £80 billion in lost revenue to date and rising.

The IFS is but one economic body that looks at these things. 163 economists in the Times recently stated that Labour's plans would tackle climate change and kick start the economy. 163. But of course it's right that we listen to the IFS and take note. But the same IFS tell us that Brexit will damage our economy and for them it's almost as worrying as Labour's manifesto. And a No Deal Brexit will be far worse than that and totally destroy the UK economy. Labour's state spending would put us about half way in the OECD league table and is not extreme by international standards. France and Germany spend more on their public services. Creeping up to 45% GDP is a lot, but it's around 39% for the USA (with no NHS) and 50% in Sweden, a big Scandinavian success story.

Abstract figures apart, we should judge a government's economic competency on how it has impacted on its people. And here is a ten year record of abject failure (unless you are one of the top 5% of earners!) Wages for most (inflation noted) are barely back to 2008 levels. Many people have had wage cuts or freezes for ten years. Child poverty is about to rise to a 60 year high. Living standards have deteriorated. Record use of food banks. Record numbers of homeless people. Record numbers of beggars on the streets. Personal debt at an all time record high. Financial inequality at its widest. For the first time ever, life expectancy in some northern towns had dropped! Record waiting lists for the NHS. Need I list any more damning figures? 

We are consistently paying more tax than ever before. Increases in VAT, the bedroom tax and NI contributions have meant that we're paying more but getting far less. The government has missed its financial targets x5 since 2010.

But the biggest danger to the economy is Brexit. No less than 4 ex-PMs have told us that. The damage it is causing and will cause is incalculable. Bar Minford and his nutcases there are no credible economists or organisations anywhere that will tell you that Brexit will be good for our economy. Not one.

But let's pretend that the Tories are good for our economy. I'm sorry, Bill, but we'll have to disagree on this one.

A lot of points to cover;  Let's start with 2 we can agree on- Brexit:  As a firm remain voter, I have to agree that whichever economic models you look at we are indeed going to be worse off outside the EU in the short term--the very reason why I did vote to remain.  Tax levels are indeed at their highest for almost 40 years--all the more reason why Labour should NOT be contemplating rising these levels. The highest paid individuals contribute almost 30% of the total tax take and the top 5% a massive near-50% of the total tax the government receives. Again, another compelling reason why Labour's plans are so short-sighted. Any emigration by a proportion of the top 1% (and as they are much more mobile, that's almost inevitable) will leave a massive big black hole in Labour's income projections and will of course inevitably lead to many more people being lumbered with higher tax bills. At least the Conservatives have pledged to not increase, VAT, income tax and national insurance.

I'm pleased you have also accepted the first 2 facts. Fact 3 is in actuallity real--it is a fact not an opinion, (official figures--check it out) so whether you agree or not, it is absolute fact. The IFS, as you well know,  is one most highly regarded objective observer of the country's finances and it did not hold back (quite correctly, in criticising both main parties' spending plans) but where it stated that the Tory spending was "unwise" it very scathingly made the point that Labour's spending/tax raising palns are "unachievable".  Yes, there are other economists who have been somewhat kinder to Labour's aims, but do a little research into the adressees of the letter you quote and you will see, a good number of them have been used as advisers by the Labour party--this, I suggest, hardly makes them objective! 

You quote France, Germany & Sweden as models, but ommit to say that all these countries have higher average individual tax levels than we do in the UK.  Fine, if you want more public spending, but if you do wish to go down this road you need to acknowledge that taxes will have to go up for the many and not just the few--you can't try and con the general public by peddling the tax lies that Labour's spokespeople continue to do.  Wages in real terms have now (at long last I grant you) exceeded what they were in 2008, but then again I'm afraid that one of the main reasons for the time it has taken, has been in the main to do with the dire straights the economy was left in when Labour left government!

I'm pleased that we can agree on a number of issues. I guess we are never going to reach agreement on everything economics-wise, but at least I don't mind having the debate with you, as unlike many 'lefties' on here, you do attempt to back up your arguments and thoughts with some rationale, objectivity and facts.

[mr.hobblesworth]

11 minutes ago, Bycarsbill said:

unlike many 'lefties' on here, you do attempt to back up your arguments and thoughts with some rationale, objectivity and facts.

Unlike yourself too with your constant regurgitation of lies and misinformation.

[philpvfc]

5 hours ago, Howjy04 said:

Re the London Bridge attack,there was a police officer on one of the debates who stated it was virtually impossible to stop that sort of attack.The armed police were on the scene within 5 minutes.Khan was the first idiot to start the blame game.

No party should use incidents like that for political gain but as you mentioned, once again it was Labour who first came out with the political attacks as well as the Liberal party and then the Conservatives responded. Worth noting it was Labour who came out straight away after the Manchester bombings during the last election campaign and Corbyn’s pathetic showings shortly after the Grenall fire.

[philpvfc]

3 minutes ago, mr.hobblesworth said:

Unlike yourself too with your constant regurgitation of lies and misinformation.

Says mr Fake news himself

[philpvfc]

Latest opinion polls showing Labour gaining ground. I can see the next Government not being a majority again. Brexit will never get sorted!!

[mr.hobblesworth]

6 minutes ago, philpvfc said:

Says mr Fake news himself

Show me some fake news I posted please.

[philpvfc]

I don’t want to go through all these pages but you are forever sharing links from left wing bull <ovf censored> material. 

I remember last election when I listened to what you had to say and decided not to vote Conservative based off your crap. All you said would happen did not, I cannot remember all the <ovf censored> you said but I can remember you saying if the Conservatives get in we will see fox hunting legalised again, which turned out to be a lie as it was never even put to the vote.

you are a member of the Labour Party with access to loads of left wing fake news and unfortunately you share a lot of it on hear.