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mr.hobblesworth

General Erection - 12th December 2019

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18 hours ago, philpvfc said:

Yes but only muppets who see Brexit as their main key for voting would vote for Labour as Corbyns plans for a deal will not give any pro-Brexit supporter what they voted for. 

If Brexit is the main driver for voting then it is a choice between Liberal if you want to stay in or Conservative if you want to leave. Labour is not an option.

I think we're in agreement over this?

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16 hours ago, Jacko51 said:

Exactly. Which begs the question why on earth we are leaving the EU when even people like Rees Mogg are saying it will adversely affect the economy. 

It was always going to "adversely affect the economy" especially in the short term, which is why I vociferously campaigned for a remain vote in the referendum. But sadly for me that didn't stop the 17.4 million voting for leave! The political reasons for staying in the EU for me were always more nuanced and less compelling, but the economic arguments were, IMO overwhelming for staying in a trading block that is the biggest in the world and which arguably has given us economic growth and stability over the last 40 plus years. Whether Rees-Mogg and the ERG cohorts will be proven right that the economy will be better off long-term is anybody's guess. At my advanced age, I doubt I shall be around to find out who was right and who was wrong!

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Bill, you are deluding yourself.

Yes, you have in passing briefly mentioned the Tory spending plan but 9/10 times your posts are over the top Labour bashing with little sense of history or fairness.

I posted previously that you were being unfair in your judgements when you gave us a history lesson going back to the seventies but - another oversight I'm sure - completely forgot to include reference to Heath, the three day week, the failure of monetarism, the fact that inflation was creeping up towards 10% by 1990 and the poll tax. And then we had Black Wednesday and Lamont and interest rates going up x3 in a single day, plus over a million losing their houses and many in negative equity. That's what lost the Tories the 97 election.

I'm not defending Labour at the end of the seventies. They too messed it up. They've had their problems too in the mid sixties and to an extent up to 2008 although I refuse to buy into the myth that the 2008 recession was Labour's fault. So, at various times over the years, in context, both parties have made mistakes. And there is a very strong argument that suggests that the strongest economy we've had in the last thirty years was around the turn of the century under Blair.

If you care so much about the economy you will know that the biggest danger to it is a hard or no deal Brexit, but I can't find anywhere in your posts where you are condemning the Tories for pushing for this.

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2 minutes ago, TheSage said:

Bill, you are deluding yourself.

Yes, you have in passing briefly mentioned the Tory spending plan but 9/10 times your posts are over the top Labour bashing with little sense of history or fairness.

I posted previously that you were being unfair in your judgements when you gave us a history lesson going back to the seventies but - another oversight I'm sure - completely forgot to include reference to Heath, the three day week, the failure of monetarism, the fact that inflation was creeping up towards 10% by 1990 and the poll tax. And then we had Black Wednesday and Lamont and interest rates going up x3 in a single day, plus over a million losing their houses and many in negative equity. That's what lost the Tories the 97 election.

I'm not defending Labour at the end of the seventies. They too messed it up. They've had their problems too in the mid sixties and to an extent up to 2008 although I refuse to buy into the myth that the 2008 recession was Labour's fault. So, at various times over the years, in context, both parties have made mistakes. And there is a very strong argument that suggests that the strongest economy we've had in the last thirty years was around the turn of the century under Blair.

If you care so much about the economy you will know that the biggest danger to it is a hard or no deal Brexit, but I can't find anywhere in your posts where you are condemning the Tories for pushing for this.

Your "history lesson" is a little selective. You don't need to lecture me on the history of those times-as I actually lived through the 3 day working week with lights off, TVs off and all the other problems that went with those dark (literally) and bad days. Add to that the start of the IRA's mainland bombing attacks--I was living in London at that time and lost 2 close friends in one of those incidents! Life, I can assure you certainly wasn't a bowl of cherries in those days.  And if you recall there were 3 elections during 1973/74 with both Labour and Conservative governments in charge at various times!

However, it was Labour with Callaghan as Pm and Dennis Healey as Chancellor that really caused the biggest financial disaster of the 70s when in 1976 once again a Labour administration near bankcrupted the country (there's a pattern emerging here don't you think?) and Healey had to go cap in hand to the IMS to bail out the country. With inflation touching almost 17% and interest rates around the 20% mark, a Sterling crisis and no credit available, it was not pleasant living through those disastrous days I can tell you.

I am not a Brexiteer--I solidly voted for remain and was devastated that the vote went the way it did. However if you believe in democracy, I feel that you have to bend to the will of the people and you like many others are trying to re-run the referendum campaign. For better or worse "Leave" was the verdict of the majority and I don't think you can be selective over democracy! In that sense, Boris is correct--we have to get on with it and make the best of it we can--the alternative is to destroy the vast majority's faith in a democratic society.

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You're doing it again. Two paragraphs slating Labour but as far as I can see nowt about the Tories and all their failures. 

I'm not denying the mess we were in at the end of the seventies but what on earth that has go to do with 2019 escapes me, other than the fact that you wish to bring it up to bash the Labour Party. Going back 40 years is desperate. But those on the right always have a selective reading of history and can never resist bashing opposition politicians. Whoever it was, Blair, Wilson, Brown - they were all useless weren't they? 

I'm delighted you don't disagree with me about the dreadful damage the Tories did in the 90s with the poll tax, Black Wednesday and negative equity, and that you acknowledge that the economy was at its strongest in Blair's first term. We can at least agree on some things.

There is no 'pattern emerging' whatsoever apart from the pattern of selectivity, bias and downright lies  - as we see at its extreme in the Tory Party today.

Democracy isn't dead. It didn't stop in 2016. If you believe Brexit is bad then you should vote for a party other than the Tories.

You spend line after line telling us about how awful Labour was donkey's years ago but I'm yet to see you condemn Johnson and call him out for his despicable behaviour and lying. 

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11 hours ago, mr.hobblesworth said:

Many of the assessors are student nurses. The government has taken away these nurses' bursaries so they're desperate for money. The government pays assessors more for refusing claims than accepting them. Ergo more claims are declined. Of all the cases that go to appeal, 75% are then approved. There's basically an unofficial policy of declining claims in the hope people don't appeal. Disabled parking bays are often purposely situated away from the interview building and under CCTV cameras so the assessor can watch how the person struggles with mobility. The assessors are instructed to ask 'how are you' when the disabled person enters and a natural response of 'I'm ok' or 'fine thanks' counts against them. It's absolutely barbaric and shameful.

I always warned clients of the hidden questions implied in the obvious questions asked e.g........

Do you have problems tying your shoe laces (obvious question) do you have restricted back movement, can you bend (hidden question)

Answer...... when I go out I wear slip on shoes and I have a long shoe horn.

There are quite a few examples.

The answers should never be a simple yes or no..... and never describe your circumstances on your best day always recount what you are like on your worst day

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It seems Labour are announcing regional policies......

I wish they had done that from the off.... now it just gets thrown in the blender with some of the crap they started with.

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Johnson has been doing a phone in on the radio this morning and if you think Corbyn and the others were bad then I suggest you listen to him.

He hasn't been grilled by Neil because he "can't do all the debates".

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31 minutes ago, TheSage said:

You're doing it again. Two paragraphs slating Labour but as far as I can see nowt about the Tories and all their failures. 

I'm not denying the mess we were in at the end of the seventies but what on earth that has go to do with 2019 escapes me, other than the fact that you wish to bring it up to bash the Labour Party. Going back 40 years is desperate. But those on the right always have a selective reading of history and can never resist bashing opposition politicians. Whoever it was, Blair, Wilson, Brown - they were all useless weren't they? 

I'm delighted you don't disagree with me about the dreadful damage the Tories did in the 90s with the poll tax, Black Wednesday and negative equity, and that you acknowledge that the economy was at its strongest in Blair's first term. We can at least agree on some things.

There is no 'pattern emerging' whatsoever apart from the pattern of selectivity, bias and downright lies  - as we see at its extreme in the Tory Party today.

Democracy isn't dead. It didn't stop in 2016. If you believe Brexit is bad then you should vote for a party other than the Tories.

You spend line after line telling us about how awful Labour was donkey's years ago but I'm yet to see you condemn Johnson and call him out for his despicable behaviour and lying. 

Not only are you selective with your history, you're also selective and one-eyed when it comes to reading my replies to you. Unless your spectacles are different from mine, where above have I agreed with you (or indeed even mentioned) the poll tax and Blair's supposed triumphs? Talk about only reading what you want to!

As far as your charge about me referring back to the 70's, can I please remind you that it was in fact you who was going on about the Heath years--at least please remember what you write before accusing others of not keeping to the debate! "Going back 40 years" is precisely what you did to kick-off the debate in the first instance and I was only answering the point which you had made about Edward Heath!

I'm not closed-eyed when it comes to the shortcomings of the Conservatives and Johnson--he certainly wasn't my choice for leader!  However when it comes to the economy, the pattern of each successive Labour government leaving the country in the soft stuff economically and the succeeding Tory government having to mop up the fallout and redress the economic woes is irrefutable and clear to see for anyone who professes to be an 'historian'--talk to any objective economist or check the facts if you don't believe me. I think you really should book an appointment with Specsavers to check the rose-tinted Labour lenses you must have in your current pair!

Of course democracy isn't "dead" surely the fact that we're having an election currentlyproves this even to you?  And yes, I shall weigh up carefully where I'm going to place my cross on the ballot paper on the 12th.

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52 minutes ago, geosname said:

It seems Labour are announcing regional policies......

I wish they had done that from the off.... now it just gets thrown in the blender with some of the crap they started with.

Another "crap" idea that Labour announced yesterday but which very much fell below the radar was their pledge to plant a billion trees by the year 2040.  Sounds all very wonderful & green, but do the maths; a billion over 21 years implies planting nearly half a million trees every year or almost 40,000 tree plantings a month.  All very nice and laudible, but again a Labour pie-in- the-sky and unrealistic pledge!

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5 minutes ago, Bycarsbill said:

Another "crap" idea that Labour announced yesterday but which very much fell below the radar was their pledge to plant a billion trees by the year 2040.  Sounds all very wonderful & green, but do the maths; a billion over 21 years implies planting nearly half a million trees every year or almost 40,000 tree plantings a month.  All very nice and laudible, but again a Labour pie-in- the-sky and unrealistic pledge!

I don't think they are expecting just one person to do all the planting. 

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It isn't exactly the golden age of politics is it?

I'll get stick from all corners for saying this (my coat is at the ready) but I do wish we'd got more politicians of integrity and status and gravitas, like Grieve, Starmer, and people who have deserted the sinking ship of Parliament like Burnham and Stewart. Both Tory and Labour have lost a great many people who had the ability and common sense to play a role in UK politics but for various reasons they've left in droves.

It's a sad reflection of what we've become and where we are but Cameron will go down in the history books as the biggest idiot of all time. He's unleashed this nationalist populism and subsequently his party has been taken over by the hard right ERG and lost its traditional one nation Tory strand, as evidenced by kicking out Heseltine and Major taking Johnson to court.

Conversely there is little doubt that JC has taken Labour left and also vacated the middle ground, losing centre Labour politicians in the process. Rightly or wrongly (because Labour leaders always get very unfair press coverage that is 80% biased against them) many voters do not see JC as a leader. They think he's too left and probably too old.

In terms of Brexit we've then got a lot of voters who will vote Tory - in the mistaken belief that it will be over quickly, but with no intelligent understanding of what lies ahead.

Equally, there are voters who are appalled by austerity and the rapid increase in poverty, homelessness, begging, food banks, universal credit and the state of public services, like the NHS, who prefer to vote Labour.

We're between a rock and hard place. 

Personally I'd be more than content for a hung Parliament and a re-assessment of Brexit. Do voters really want to damage the economy? Do they want to risk breaking up the UK, putting a border in the Irish Sea and losing Scotland because of it? I don't accept that's what we voted for, suspect many haven't a clue what it could mean and blindly think it'll be done in 12 months and we'll be basking in sunny uplands.

What will happen? Who knows? Probably a win for Johnson, a dreadful few years ahead, Labour replacing JC and winning the next election - but by that time it's too late.

Yet if JC appears not to be up to it for many, how on earth can anyone with any decency vote for Johnson, the biggest liar in the history of British politics, a man of dubious morals, no integrity and only interested in himself and his Eton chums. The Tory campaign has been disgraceful. Altering websites. Refusing interviews or scrutiny. Threatening to close down Channel 4. Rees Mogg telling us all that's he knows best. And the lies and misrepresentation of reality quite frankly has been staggering. They've behaved in an appalling manner.

And we haven't even begun to address climate change, on which the Tories have one of the worst records in Europe and Farage of course is in climate change denial. 

 

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58 minutes ago, Bycarsbill said:

Another "crap" idea that Labour announced yesterday but which very much fell below the radar was their pledge to plant a billion trees by the year 2040.  Sounds all very wonderful & green, but do the maths; a billion over 21 years implies planting nearly half a million trees every year or almost 40,000 tree plantings a month.  All very nice and laudible, but again a Labour pie-in- the-sky and unrealistic pledge!

I think regional policies are a good idea, it gives local areas more ability to scrutinise promises made, rather than the mish mash of national policy that usually gets lost in total funding promises..... the more specific the regional policies are the better in my opinion.... it allows the population of that region to weed out the crap and hold them accountable.

As for the trees....... where are they being planted?...... 1 billion covers a very large area.

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16 minutes ago, Bycarsbill said:

Not only are you selective with your history, you're also selective and one-eyed when it comes to reading my replies to you. Unless your spectacles are different from mine, where above have I agreed with you (or indeed even mentioned) the poll tax and Blair's supposed triumphs? Talk about only reading what you want to!

As far as your charge about me referring back to the 70's, can I please remind you that it was in fact you who was going on about the Heath years--at least please remember what you write before accusing others of not keeping to the debate! "Going back 40 years" is precisely what you did to kick-off the debate in the first instance and I was only answering the point which you had made about Edward Heath!

I'm not closed-eyed when it comes to the shortcomings of the Conservatives and Johnson--he certainly wasn't my choice for leader!  However when it comes to the economy, the pattern of each successive Labour government leaving the country in the soft stuff economically and the succeeding Tory government having to mop up the fallout and redress the economic woes is irrefutable and clear to see for anyone who professes to be an 'historian'--talk to any objective economist or check the facts if you don't believe me. I think you really should book an appointment with Specsavers to check the rose-tinted Labour lenses you must have in your current pair!

Of course democracy isn't "dead" surely the fact that we're having an election currentlyproves this even to you?  And yes, I shall weigh up carefully where I'm going to place my cross on the ballot paper on the 12th.

I mentioned Blair's strong economy and the poll tax as a counterbalance to all your earlier posts when you spent most of your time bashing Labour but ignoring things like that. I put them in for balance.

And since you didn't construct an argument against these statements - as you did about the seventies - then the assumption was that you agree with me. Thatcher and Major cocked up the economy, it lost them the 97 election and the economy was at its best in the last 30 years under Blair's Labour government. That's all true isn't it?

The facts are that ALL governments leave the economy in a worse state of debt. ALL of them. Not just Labour but Tories too. Both run into economic problems eventually. But I do agree with you fully - the late seventies was as bad as it gets and Labour (and some of the union barons back then) should rightly get clobbered. Absolutely.

The Tories by the way always borrow more than Labour and always have done. The current debt is astronomical. How many trillion is it now? Growth has been virtually zero for ten years. Most wages are barely back to 2008 levels. The 2008 crash was a world wide recession caused by the housing and banking sectors that spread to the UK. It wasn't caused by Labour. With hindsight (wonderful thing) Labour could have done more to regulate the banks and to tighten public finances. But no-one foresaw the future. The Tories said that they'd match Labour's spending plans in 2005 and wanted even fewer regulations for the banks! So it's a bit rich to blame Labour for this. They were not blameless, I agree, but it's easy to be wise after the event and it's a bit unfair. Even Osborne now admits that blaming Labour was a political scam.

Since 2010 as I say we have had virtually no growth, poor inward investment and a rundown of our public services. It is a poor economic record, very poor. Any economist worth his salt will tell you that in times of recession you don't slash and burn, you should invest to get the economy going. That's what Darling started to do but once Osborne got in he cut too deeply and too fast, damaging the fabric of society and leading to poor growth because of it. And yet the wealthiest people in society got huge tax cuts while the rest of us suffered. We were not in it all together. Poorer sections of society have paid for austerity and that isn't morally right in my book.

I like to think my glasses are a multi colour of red, yellow and green! But never blue. Having said I did once have a blue pair as I've voted for 4 different parties in my life and like you I'm still debating what I'll do although since I unashamedly dislike Johnson and his hard Brexit so much I'll probably vote tactically. 

If we could only bottle all our passions over politics for Saturday's match we'd be in the top flight!!

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1 hour ago, TheSage said:

It isn't exactly the golden age of politics is it?

I'll get stick from all corners for saying this (my coat is at the ready) but I do wish we'd got more politicians of integrity and status and gravitas, like Grieve, Starmer, and people who have deserted the sinking ship of Parliament like Burnham and Stewart. Both Tory and Labour have lost a great many people who had the ability and common sense to play a role in UK politics but for various reasons they've left in droves.

It's a sad reflection of what we've become and where we are but Cameron will go down in the history books as the biggest idiot of all time. He's unleashed this nationalist populism and subsequently his party has been taken over by the hard right ERG and lost its traditional one nation Tory strand, as evidenced by kicking out Heseltine and Major taking Johnson to court.

Conversely there is little doubt that JC has taken Labour left and also vacated the middle ground, losing centre Labour politicians in the process. Rightly or wrongly  many voters do not see JC as a leader. They think he's too left

We're between a rock and hard place. 

 

 

Agreed.

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7 minutes ago, geosname said:

I think regional policies are a good idea, it gives local areas more ability to scrutinise promises made, rather than the mish mash of national policy that usually gets lost in total funding promises..... the more specific the regional policies are the better in my opinion.... it allows the population of that region to weed out the crap and hold them accountable.

As for the trees....... where are they being planted?...... 1 billion covers a very large area.

I don't know about the numbers of trees and what that equates to in acres but I recall that the year before last 3 people alone could have planted as many trees as we planted in the whole of the UK.! 

The good thing about last night's TV debate was that it was conducted in a spirit of mutual respect and honesty. It made a marvellous change to recent political discourse and I felt relieved and happy that we still have some politicians who can act with decorum and debate climate change intelligently without throwing mud all the time. It lifted my spirits.

We do need to act quickly and see off the head in the sand opponents of climate change (like Trump and Farage) and start to act sensibly for our children.

It's very hard, I get that, but our government must do more. Things like investing in public transport, restricting car ownership, forcing us towards electric vehicles, finding ways of negating the damage of big corporations, looking at cattle farming closely, and stop building on greenfield sites. And all the rest..... The list is endless but painful for most of us consumers. I guess it's also a problem because private enterprise and environmental protection don't go hand in hand. But we need to do these things together, as countries and as people. It's too important to ignore. But it's for the other thread.

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1 hour ago, TheSage said:

I don't know about the numbers of trees and what that equates to in acres but I recall that the year before last 3 people alone could have planted as many trees as we planted in the whole of the UK.! 

The good thing about last night's TV debate was that it was conducted in a spirit of mutual respect and honesty. It made a marvellous change to recent political discourse and I felt relieved and happy that we still have some politicians who can act with decorum and debate climate change intelligently without throwing mud all the time. It lifted my spirits.

We do need to act quickly and see off the head in the sand opponents of climate change (like Trump and Farage) and start to act sensibly for our children.

It's very hard, I get that, but our government must do more. Things like investing in public transport, restricting car ownership, forcing us towards electric vehicles, finding ways of negating the damage of big corporations, looking at cattle farming closely, and stop building on greenfield sites. And all the rest..... The list is endless but painful for most of us consumers. I guess it's also a problem because private enterprise and environmental protection don't go hand in hand. But we need to do these things together, as countries and as people. It's too important to ignore. But it's for the other thread.

I have no problem with the idea of cleaning up the environment..... but it won't be done by small measures.... ban plastic packaging and bottles would be a start..... ban all transport that uses fossil fuels..... build nuclear power generation plants.

The cost would decimate the economy and many big businesses but would have a major impact on the environment.... it won't happen.... planting trees is like urinating in the Pacific..... limited superficial effect.... sounds good on a manifesto though, whichever party broadcasts it.

Back in the day when bottles were glass and people had pig swill bins..... what were straws made of?

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2 hours ago, Bycarsbill said:

Another "crap" idea that Labour announced yesterday but which very much fell below the radar was their pledge to plant a billion trees by the year 2040.  Sounds all very wonderful & green, but do the maths; a billion over 21 years implies planting nearly half a million trees every year or almost 40,000 tree plantings a month.  All very nice and laudible, but again a Labour pie-in- the-sky and unrealistic pledge!

Nowt crap about it, Bill.

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1 hour ago, geosname said:

I think regional policies are a good idea, it gives local areas more ability to scrutinise promises made, rather than the mish mash of national policy that usually gets lost in total funding promises..... the more specific the regional policies are the better in my opinion.... it allows the population of that region to weed out the crap and hold them accountable.

As for the trees....... where are they being planted?...... 1 billion covers a very large area.

Precisely!  However well meaning, it's just another of Labour's populist, uncosted and not well-thought through ideas. It must be lovely in Jeremy's fantasy world--perhaps this is where I've been going wrong and I should just chuck-in the towel and join the 'fantasy brigade' in Jeremy's Socialist utopian army--bet it never rains the sun always shines there too? Oh, no, that won't do--the trees wouldn't grow would they?!

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