General Erection - 12th December 2019

[Bycarsbill]

22 minutes ago, Nofinikea said:

Are you not shocked the fire brigade got it wrong because of the savage cuts they have endured during Tory austerity that has done  nothing to reduce the national debt?

Or were you not shocked because you think the fire brigade is incompetent.

I was very shocked that the fire brigade were made scapegoats when it was government regulation that allowed the cladding in the first place despite a similar problem happening in Australia.

Just another example of Tory <ovf censored> being swallowed by the foolish.

The fire brigade got it wrong not because of "savage cuts" The residents were very badly let down, as too were the brave firefighters by the irresponsible and poor management at the top of the London Fire Brigade!  That woman leader is a total disgrace and in not resigning and going on to collect her £140,000 pension next year, shows what singularly poor judgement she has. The old saying about donkeys leading lions readily comes to mind!

[Fosse69]

6 hours ago, geosname said:

Only read a snippet of moggs comment..... not appalled at what I read.

Not shocked the fire brigade got it wrong and gave bad advice.

Instinctively  I would try to leave a building if it was on fire, I'm not sure I would listen to advice from anyone to stay inside.

May`s plan worked, divert the focus onto the fire service away from the culprits of the fire, the building firm. Building regulations government apathy, Building control Local council contributing factors. Take 2 years to investigate the control of the incident, then 2 years on the cause of such an unusual fire, results beyond her fixed term parliament. Sheer luck for Johnson that his involvement as Mayor of London not yet scrutinised. Major cause for the scale of the fire was lack of fire stopping between floors, in the gap between the added cladding and original 60s building.  Only having one staircase would make evacuation more difficult too. Fire brigade extinguished the flat fire on one of the lower floors, it was not realised initially that the  unexpected had happened that the external wall/cladding had caught fire. Multi-story building are designed to contain or slow fire spread, Govt regs lay down fire service activities, in the expectation that the building has been properly built, adequate information is supplied to the local fire service, familiarisation of the building is made and remedial works carried out. Cutting corners and reduce spending had its effects.

Many people may not have known there was a fire, or thought it was put out, is it safe to walk down the stairs in the dark with all the smoke and fumes, firemen trying to come up the stairs at the same time, not so easy at the time. The firemen were the lions, again it was the donkeys who did not grasp the scale of the problem, it is the top people who are employed to manage the unexpected. 

It is a massive subject, I slept last week-end 500mm from the same cladding, but part of the building not an add-on. Its removal will be costly though.

[Fosse69]

38 minutes ago, Bycarsbill said:

The fire brigade got it wrong not because of "savage cuts" The residents were very badly let down, as too were the brave firefighters by the irresponsible and poor management at the top of the London Fire Brigade!  That woman leader is a total

disgrace and in not resigning and going on to collect her £140,000 pension next year, shows what singularly poor judgement she has. The old saying about donkeys leading lions readily comes to mind!

Difficult to tackle a fire in a tinder box, if plans are not available, remedial measures not taken, fire alarms not maintained etc, due to reduced spending. Proper inspections and familiarisation activities not carried out, etc etc  not due to cuts what is? Like a football team just turning up with no training etc

[geosname]

1 hour ago, Nofinikea said:

Are you not shocked the fire brigade got it wrong because of the savage cuts they have endured during Tory austerity that has done  nothing to reduce the national debt?

Or were you not shocked because you think the fire brigade is incompetent.

I was very shocked that the fire brigade were made scapegoats when it was government regulation that allowed the cladding in the first place despite a similar problem happening in Australia.

Just another example of Tory <ovf censored> being swallowed by the foolish.

When you jump you go both feet don't you.

They gave bad advice based on bad advice from people who were wrong..... the fire fighters were given advice from people who were not there from what I've read, dealing with a situation they hadn't experience to deal with......

Their "blame" which is a bad word to use was telling people to stay inside, it was, apparently, the wrong advice.

The real blame should be levelled at others doors..... whoever signed off on the cladding for one..... but many others come into the frame.... and should be accountable.

If you were in a multistory building and a fire broke out, on any floor above or below, what would your first instinct be..... before panic set in..... mine would be to get me and mine out as quickly as possible..... whatever the firemen or the police said.

[geosname]

1 hour ago, Fosse69 said:

May`s plan worked, divert the focus onto the fire service away from the culprits of the fire, the building firm. Building regulations government apathy, Building control Local council contributing factors. Take 2 years to investigate the control of the incident, then 2 years on the cause of such an unusual fire, results beyond her fixed term parliament. Sheer luck for Johnson that his involvement as Mayor of London not yet scrutinised. Major cause for the fire was lack of fire stopping between floors, in the gap between the added cladding and original 60s building.  Only having one staircase would make evacuation more difficult too. Fire brigade extinguished the flat fire on one of the lower floors, it was not realised initially that the  unexpected had happened that the external wall/cladding had caught fire. Multi-story building are designed to contain or slow fire spread, Govt regs lay down fire service activities, in the expectation that the building has been properly built, adequate information is supplied to the local fire service, familiarisation of the building is made and remedial works carried out. Cutting corners and reduce spending had its effects.

Many people may not have known there was a fire, or thought it was put out, is it safe to walk down the stairs in the dark with all the smoke and fumes, firemen trying to come up the stairs at the same time, not so easy at the time. The firemen were the lions, again it was the donkeys who did not grasp the scale of the problem, it is the top people who are employed to manage the unexpected. 

It is a massive subject, I slept last week-end 500mm from the same cladding, but part of the building not an add-on. Its removal will be costly though.

I'm not blaming the fire service for the fire mate, just their part of the failure.

[geosname]

We are straying off topic.

[Regal Beagle]

2 hours ago, Nofinikea said:

Are you not shocked the fire brigade got it wrong because of the savage cuts they have endured during Tory austerity that has done  nothing to reduce the national debt?

Or were you not shocked because you think the fire brigade is incompetent.

I was very shocked that the fire brigade were made scapegoats when it was government regulation that allowed the cladding in the first place despite a similar problem happening in Australia.

Just another example of Tory <ovf censored> being swallowed by the foolish.

Take that tin foil cladding off your head. 

Not everything is a conspiracy. 

Not sure how a funding cut = let's tell people to stay in a burning building. 

[ginge]

Having watched the James Cleverley interview with Kay Burley this morning I have to praise him on his best ever media performance! For once he didn't say a wrong word! 

Not like his poor show on GMB trying to worm his way out of the Tory twitter account doctoring a video of a Labour interview.

[Fosse69]

54 minutes ago, geosname said:

We are straying off topic.

People in London would disagree, Grenfell is entirely due to Austerity and Government lethargy in modernising multi-story building regs in the light of previous fires, but is being kept quiet. Cameron, May and Johnson are at fault. Thus part of the election discussion, not necessarily on this forum though.

[Bycarsbill]

2 hours ago, Nofinikea said:

I suppose you think the reduced numbers of coppers and the increase in knife crime arent linked either?  Just curious because I fail to see how the cuts to the fire brigade are not in part responsible.  Cutting anything that is necessary will eventually lead to something going badly wrong despite what a Tory will tell you.

There have been studies that don't actually link the police numbers/ stabbings issue.  However, as always, you seem to miss the point. My post was all about poor management.  Get off your conspiracies in everything soapbox.  Irrespective of financial issues, as the official report makes clear, this was a case of very poor management control and lives could have, and should have been saved with swifter and more efective management rationale and  instructions.

[Bycarsbill]

4 hours ago, Fosse69 said:

Difficult to tackle a fire in a tinder box, if plans are not available, remedial measures not taken, fire alarms not maintained etc, due to reduced spending. Proper inspections and familiarisation activities not carried out, etc etc  not due to cuts what is? Like a football team just turning up with no training etc

Again, I wish some of 'conspiratists' would read the actual report. Not only was the top management of the London Fire Brigade heaviy criticised in the report, but also the issue of cladding which had seemingly had passed building regulation requirements. However, the biggest irony in all this--again if you care to read the official report--is that it was Westminster council that granted EXTRA money to clad the Grenfell tower block (not the government) in the mistaken belief that it was improvement to the building.  So in reality it was ADDITIONAL SPENDING in this case, not a reduction in spending that was one of a number of main contributory factors in this sad tragedy!

[Bycarsbill]

2 hours ago, Fosse69 said:

People in London would disagree, Grenfell is entirely due to Austerity and Government lethargy in modernising multi-story building regs in the light of previous fires, but is being kept quiet. Cameron, May and Johnson are at fault. Thus part of the election discussion, not necessarily on this forum though.

Wow that's stretching credulity to the limit! Boris Johnson at the time of this awful tragedy was Foreign Secretary--how on earth can you therefore claim that he is "at fault"?  Grenfell had nothing whatsoever to do with his government brief at that time!

[philpvfc]

This form of cladding has gone for many a year through many governments. This should never have been brought in to a political scandal, Corbyn was a complete <ovf censored> turning up shortly after the event. There was countless errors by local council, Government and the fire brigade where lessons should be learnt but not to be brought to a political scandal.

[Fosse69]

2 minutes ago, Bycarsbill said:

Again, I wish some of 'conspiratists' would read the actual report. Not only was the top management of the London Fire Brigade heaviy criticised in the report, but also the issue of cladding which had seemingly had passed building regulation requirements. However, the biggest irony in all this--again if you care to read the official report--is that it was Westminster council that granted EXTRA money to clad the Grenfell tower block (not the government) in the mistaken belief that it was improvement to the building.  So in reality it was ADDITIONAL SPENDING in this case, not a reduction in spending that was one of a number of main contributory factors in this sad tragedy!

This was the report on the fire brigade, the investigation into the building does not start until January. The cladding issues will be part of that, as will the lack of adequate building regulations and supervision of. Don't assume anything had passed scrutiny. Why the block was cladded is open to investigation, in my mind cosmetic as it was an old 60s building not in keeping with the newer buildings in the location, although some say it was for insulation purposes, could have been both, but the crux was that the specification for the cladding was reduced to a more flammable type to cut cost, Although the biggest blunder was the lack of fire stopping between floors which instead of preventing the spread of the fire, enables the cladding to act as a chimney with disastrous results.. Lots of this came out just after the fire, but May split the investigation into two parts to hide Govt  progress on regulation changes as a result of previous tower fires, regulation control, fire service staffing/resources etc

I may be guilty of going off topic into building detail, but it was only to assure you that it is far from a conspiracy.

[Fosse69]

32 minutes ago, Bycarsbill said:

Wow that's stretching credulity to the limit! Boris Johnson at the time of this awful tragedy was Foreign Secretary--how on earth can you therefore claim that he is "at fault"?  Grenfell had nothing whatsoever to do with his government brief at that time!

Open your eyes, Johnson as mayor of London, reduced the fire service. I will admit he bought water cannons off the Germans but not for fires but for people but May would not let him use them.