General Erection - 12th December 2019

[tommytunstall]

1 hour ago, bobvale said:

I wonder if all the good folk on here having a go at momentum have ever met any of there people? My niece's daughter is in Momentum and she's not a communist. She and her friends took holidays and unpayed leave (she has to work over the Christmas holidays now) so she could go and knock on people's doors in towns all over the north west. My sister tells me that she'd often get home soaked through and freezing cold and she was doing this not for herself but because she truely believes in making the country a better place for those who need it. You may disagree with her ideaology but it fills my heart with pride. 

It was blair and those who wanted to ignore the leavers who got labour where they are today.

It was Blair who got us reelected. Don't disagree that Momentum people are nice dedicated people. But they are on a different page than the electorate.

[geosname]

I wouldn't want Labour to be in the middle..... very slightly left of centre is fine and a natural place for Labour to appeal to it's roots.

[For Us All]

3 minutes ago, tommytunstall said:

It was Blair who got us reelected. Don't disagree that Momentum people are nice dedicated people. But they are on a different page than the electorate.

According to former Labour MP Ian Austin,Momentum are a party within a party?

[TheSage]

The other difference of course is that the Tories are completely ruthless in their thirst for power and immediately drop failed leaders like a stone. Blimey, even Thatcher was ceremoniously kicked out and that would have been seen as unbelievable 3 -4 years before. They tried a few - IDS, Hague, Howard - before settling on Cameron who looked the part and was articulate and persuasive, a clone almost of Blair I often thought.

But Labour are reluctant to shift. They don't learn from history. Foot lost badly but they still went for Kinnock and stuck by him for longer then they ought. Eventually they saw the light and found Smith who sadly died suddenly but Blair came to the fore and continued along the same lines as Smith and made Labour electable again.

I agree fully about many people on the left who care passionately about the disadvantaged and do get off their backsides and try and make a difference. Credit for that. Huge credit. But as TT says, they are not always on the same page (nice phrase that).

Learn from the past. Wilson won 4 elections. Blair 3. But they managed to attract voters from the left and the right as well as having the charisma and intelligence to outwit their opponents.

Above all, react to what the electorate are telling you. And don't keep on repeating the same mistakes over and over again, thinking always that you are right and the rest of the country is wrong.

[TheSage]

2 minutes ago, For Us All said:

According to former Labour MP Ian Austin,Momentum are a party within a party?

I wouldn't know about that but he would say that wouldn't he?

You can definitely say that about the ERG can't you? So it cuts both ways.

[Joe B]

The only time a Socialist platform has won an election in this country was in 1945, after two devastating World Wars and a clear need for radical public investment.

Labour have had one PM since 1979 and he is now villified and castigated by the very same Party.

Blair had innumerable flaws and has a tarnished legacy, but winning 2 commanding and 1 comfortable majority is something Labour need to learn from.

Dismissing his entire style of leadership, press operation, and political philosophy because, as the Chilcott Inquiry has said, he was far too keen to accept flawed intelligence and join the US in 2003, is absolutely ludicrous and underlines the current silliness of the Labour top table.

Iraq was an awful policy decision and Blair has, rightly, been roundly criticised for it. However, he also knew how to win elections, and improved many, many more lives than Jeremy Corbyn has ever done from the back-benchers and Opposition Front Bench.

[ginge]

Interesting that Labour lost about 2 million votes at the election to pro-Remain parties and 400,000 votes to pro-Brexit Parties.

[TheSage]

The system is unfit for purpose in 2019.

To give but one example. The Lib-Dems get about 1/4 of the votes the Tories get, yet got what was it, only 11 seats?

The Tories won't like it and won't do it. I'm not sure Labour will either. But it always results in handing over all the power to one party that hardly ever gets more than 43-45% of the national vote.

Interesting stat, ginge.

[For Us All]

15 minutes ago, TheSage said:

The system is unfit for purpose in 2019.

To give but one example. The Lib-Dems get about 1/4 of the votes the Tories get, yet got what was it, only 11 seats?

The Tories won't like it and won't do it. I'm not sure Labour will either. But it always results in handing over all the power to one party that hardly ever gets more than 43-45% of the national vote.

Interesting stat, ginge.

The same applies to the SNP who got 48 seats for just 1.2m votes?

[geosname]

Proportional representation wouldn't help Labour.

If we had proportional representation it would have totally destroyed the referendum result.... bearing in mind all the parties voted to hold the referendum.

It is quite possible for a party to be second in every area and end up with more seats than a party who won most constituencies.... the parties who advocate for PR are the ones who can't attract enough voters to win.

[bobvale]

1 hour ago, geosname said:

I wouldn't want Labour to be in the middle..... very slightly left of centre is fine and a natural place for Labour to appeal to it's roots.

Labour's roots are not 'very slightly left of centre', they are a socialist party. I see what jacko51 wrote but I think the electrate liked labours policys, the polls showed that. I just think there were too many of them and they were being offered by the wrong (although very decent) man to people who were angry about people in the party wanting to stop Brexit. ifs and buts again but I think if labour just chose 7 or 8 of those policies and had a different leader then things may have been different. Having said that, I think they were in an impossible position regarding Brexit as the result has shown. I also think that the last few years has shown that it doesn't matter who the leader is, if you go up against the establishment then they will find something to get at you with. I don't think Jeremy Corbyn hated the jews like they say he does and I think that another leader would have had a similar smeer thrown at them.

[TheSage]

No, I know it wouldn't.

But the vast majority of countries world-wide do have a form of PR. And, yes, I know we can all pick and choose one to illustrate the good/bad aspects of it ie. Italy/Germany. 

But PR would ensure that we don't get a far right government nor an extreme left one - and I guess that is what a lot of people want.

It can't be fully democratic if the party in power can do anything it wants with only 43-45% of the national vote based on a 2/3rds turn-out, whoever it is. And though Brexit threw a curved ball into the ring in this election we still have a lot of areas where a great many voters feel as if they are wasting their time.

Times have changed since the 18th century but our constitution remains more or less as it was.

[Fosse69]

24 minutes ago, TheSage said:

No, I know it wouldn't.

But the vast majority of countries world-wide do have a form of PR. And, yes, I know we can all pick and choose one to illustrate the good/bad aspects of it ie. Italy/Germany. 

But PR would ensure that we don't get a far right government nor an extreme left one - and I guess that is what a lot of people want.

It can't be fully democratic if the party in power can do anything it wants with only 43-45% of the national vote based on a 2/3rds turn-out, whoever it is. And though Brexit threw a curved ball into the ring in this election we still have a lot of areas where a great many voters feel as if they are wasting their time.

Times have changed since the 18th century but our constitution remains more or less as it was.

But if you win elections with it, it will not be changed, Blair had the chance, but only bodged the House of Lords, the biggest unelected senate outside China. But then again in Murdock`s pocket.  We changed Germany`s system but not our own.

[geosname]

1 hour ago, bobvale said:

Labour's roots are not 'very slightly left of centre', they are a socialist party. I see what jacko51 wrote but I think the electrate liked labours policys, the polls showed that. I just think there were too many of them and they were being offered by the wrong (although very decent) man to people who were angry about people in the party wanting to stop Brexit. ifs and buts again but I think if labour just chose 7 or 8 of those policies and had a different leader then things may have been different. Having said that, I think they were in an impossible position regarding Brexit as the result has shown. I also think that the last few years has shown that it doesn't matter who the leader is, if you go up against the establishment then they will find something to get at you with. I don't think Jeremy Corbyn hated the jews like they say he does and I think that another leader would have had a similar smeer thrown at them.

Labour were built to represent the working class and they have lost that appeal, they no longer listen to their core support. The further left they go the more people turn away from them.

Momentum chose jezza and I think they will choose the next leader to, you should look at them closely.

Boris has an opportunity to bannish Labour to the wilderness for many years, whether he takes it or not is a different matter.

[geosname]

1 hour ago, TheSage said:

No, I know it wouldn't.

But the vast majority of countries world-wide do have a form of PR. And, yes, I know we can all pick and choose one to illustrate the good/bad aspects of it ie. Italy/Germany. 

But PR would ensure that we don't get a far right government nor an extreme left one - and I guess that is what a lot of people want.

It can't be fully democratic if the party in power can do anything it wants with only 43-45% of the national vote based on a 2/3rds turn-out, whoever it is. And though Brexit threw a curved ball into the ring in this election we still have a lot of areas where a great many voters feel as if they are wasting their time.

Times have changed since the 18th century but our constitution remains more or less as it was.

PR would give us a brexit type debate every day with nothing getting done.

If people don't want far left or right politics doesn't it make sense for Labour to move closer to the middle ground.