General Erection - 12th December 2019

[TheSage]

28 minutes ago, For Us All said:

It certainly would,remember the 70's.

Confirmation of nationalisations of the railways,the Royal Mail,energy suppliers and water companies at a cost of £196billion would send the £ plummeting.These firms would become union dominated,serving workers needs and not customers.Remember the 70's?Investment and pension funds will be at risk if the shareholders of these companies are not properly compensated.

You can understand why Labour are offering freebies to anyone under the age of 40.

Now that is fake news and complete speculation.

Blimey, going back 50 years is rather silly don't you think? But if doing that means you don't have to defend ten years of Tory cuts and austerity.....

Nationalising the health system was really daft wasn't it?

Providing us all with free schooling and  nationalising education was stupid.

The 45 Labour government also built over 1 million houses and introduced a stream of insurance schemes to attack poverty.

Introducing the minimum wage was barking mad.

Yeh, all these things were completely mad, done nothing for any of us, and ruined our lives. 

I can remember the late 80s and the early nineties? Can you recall Tory management of the economy then? Clearly not? Negative equity for millions. A million lost their homes. Interest rates up x3 in one day. Black Wednesday. Give me a break. All governments achieve successes and all of them run into economic problems. All of them.

As NoF has noted above the economic record of this government is abysmal. The right wing press won't tell you that but it's been a shocking record. Low growth. Today's figures reveal the lowest growth for 7 years. Investment has stagnated. Production flat-lined. Balance of payments deficit awful. Living standards stood still or gone backwards.

The national debt has doubled to £1.8 trillion.

Tories borrow more than Labour - always.

And the biggest threat to our economy is a hard/no deal Brexit. Every economist will tell you that. 

So, again, let's keep pretending that the Tories are wonderful in running the economy and if anyone dares question that faith then we can go back fifty years and quote from the seventies, though Heath was as bad as Callaghan and a Tory PM.

The economy was its best for the last 30 years under Labour and Tony Blair.

 

I

 

[Jacko51]

More fake news.

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2019/dec/10/woman-says-account-hacked-to-post-fake-story-about-hospital-boy?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

[TheSage]

Using words like communism and socialism as synonyms is incorrect. And I would agree with you that communists regimes don't work well and tend to fail, though I suppose China, and the USSR after 1917, and Cuba, might argue differently. But communism doesn't work as well as capitalism. And I'm not arguing for a communist country.

It depends how you define "socialism" doesn't it? I still maintain that the 45 government was a socialist one, so we'll disagree, but most commentators I think would tend to favour me! But there are lots of definitions and strands and varieties. Doesn't the word come from the Latin meaning cooperation? I'm not 100% sure about that, though. And my understanding of Labour is that they support the Keynsian model of investing public money to get the economy going as occurred after WW2 and also under FDR.  Most Scandinavian countries since 45 have tended to have more state control than us yet their living standards are probably higher. But a mixed economy would be the way to go for me. I'm not arguing for blanket state control and Castro in Downing Street.

Personally I see nothing wrong with the state owning some of the staple industries on which we all rely. Why should private companies profit from them? We all need education, transport, schools and health. But we never invested in them properly and never ran them efficiently, so they weren't as successful as they should have been. But running them for profit is not without its problems too. Money before service. The railways are a mess and nationalised railways elsewhere in Europe are much better. Bus services are cancelled and cut because private companies don't do it for the public good but money. Surely some things we should invest public money in to make life better for everyone. To attack climate change we will have to cut down car ownership and invest more in public transport. But I'm now going off the subject.

 

 

 

[TheSage]

19 minutes ago, Jacko51 said:

More fake news.

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2019/dec/10/woman-says-account-hacked-to-post-fake-story-about-hospital-boy?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

It's been a shocking example of Cummings' manipulating the media and trying to take the heat off Johnson's lack of concern for the little boy. It's a clever nasty tactic.

But what we should also focus on today is the appalling fact that over 5000 people have died on trolleys in A&E since 2016.

I reckon it's the fault of the Labour Party. Or Sturgeon. Or the EU.

[philpvfc]

1 hour ago, Jacko51 said:

I never said you were a Tory - I was referring to the guy in the video whom your post mentioned.

He may not be a Tory either. Just some guy fed up with the prat shouting his gob off. 

[For Us All]

23 minutes ago, TheSage said:

Now that is fake news and complete speculation.

Blimey, going back 50 years is rather silly don't you think? But if doing that means you don't have to defend ten years of Tory cuts and austerity.....

Nationalising the health system was really daft wasn't it?

Providing us all with free schooling and  nationalising education was stupid.

The 45 Labour government also built over 1 million houses and introduced a stream of insurance schemes to attack poverty.

Introducing the minimum wage was barking mad.

Yeh, all these things were completely mad, done nothing for any of us, and ruined our lives. 

I can remember the late 80s and the early nineties? Can you recall Tory management of the economy then? Clearly not? Negative equity for millions. A million lost their homes. Interest rates up x3 in one day. Black Wednesday. Give me a break. All governments achieve successes and all of them run into economic problems. All of them.

As NoF has noted above the economic record of this government is abysmal. The right wing press won't tell you that but it's been a shocking record. Low growth. Today's figures reveal the lowest growth for 7 years. Investment has stagnated. Production flat-lined. Balance of payments deficit awful. Living standards stood still or gone backwards.

The national debt has doubled to £1.8 trillion.

Tories borrow more than Labour - always.

And the biggest threat to our economy is a hard/no deal Brexit. Every economist will tell you that. 

So, again, let's keep pretending that the Tories are wonderful in running the economy and if anyone dares question that faith then we can go back fifty years and quote from the seventies, though Heath was as bad as Callaghan and a Tory PM.

The economy was its best for the last 30 years under Labour and Tony Blair.

 

I

 

Crikey,when were the health and education system's nationalised after being privatised.

Must have missed that?

Despite ten years of Tory cuts and austerity we have never witnessed a winter of discontent,with NHS ancillary workers blocking hospital entrances or grave diggers going on strike.We have never experienced a three-day week but I believe Jezza is already promising a four-day one?

And despite ten years of Tory cuts and austerity we have never witnessed a NHS scandal like the one that occurred at Mid-Staffs,where so many patients lost their lives because of neglect.

I believe that was on Blairs watch.

After that shocking incident you should be asking yourself,is the NHS safe under Labour?

It isn't alway the fault of those nasty Tories you know.

[philpvfc]

Not sure why I’ve had a flier through the door from the Liberals claiming to be the 2nd party in Weston Super Mare!

https://electionresults.parliament.uk/election/2017-06-08/results/Location/Constituency/Weston-super-Mare

 

They are not even close.

[Mario]

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2006/feb/16/health.politics?fbclid=IwAR30XPPeOid1p7yHL7dubrlXXu9VAcsag_bJZHVckU1k3NqxFOuhmufx9VE

An interesting article from way back ......................

 

[Mario]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/2022572/NHS-hospitals-lose-32000-beds-in-a-decade.html?fbclid=IwAR1zSFR83zJ2jFvSuNiXhQd4kFdE7F1PO1QdaJliYJOF40js5ufXq1WpZbA

Heres another one.......Just goes to show that all political parties struggle with the NHS.

[philpvfc]

It’s about time the public realised the NHS is failing in its current format and has been for as long as I remember under both Tory and Labour Government. I personally am happy to open the NHS to private companies if it helps to improve the service even if these companies happen to be American.

[Jacko51]

50 minutes ago, philpvfc said:

He may not be a Tory either. Just some guy fed up with the prat shouting his gob off. 

For heaven's sake man, Phil, did you not notice the 5 exclamation marks and smiley face at the end of my post. 🙄

[Jacko51]

42 minutes ago, For Us All said:

Crikey,when were the health and education system's nationalised after being privatised.

Must have missed that?

 

Well you need to look harder.  And get to grips with the apostrophe while you're at it.

[Bycarsbill]

1 hour ago, For Us All said:

Crikey,when were the health and education system's nationalised after being privatised.

Must have missed that?

Despite ten years of Tory cuts and austerity we have never witnessed a winter of discontent,with NHS ancillary workers blocking hospital entrances or grave diggers going on strike.We have never experienced a three-day week but I believe Jezza is already promising a four-day one?

And despite ten years of Tory cuts and austerity we have never witnessed a NHS scandal like the one that occurred at Mid-Staffs,where so many patients lost their lives because of neglect.

I believe that was on Blairs watch.

After that shocking incident you should be asking yourself,is the NHS safe under Labour?

It isn't alway the fault of those nasty Tories you know.

And, at the end of the Blair/Brown Labour years of spending, the national debt was almost 10% of the country's income--unsustainable. It's great spending lots of dosh, but as everyone knows, the credit card bill always arrives and has to be paid!

[philpvfc]

2 hours ago, TheSage said:

Now that is fake news and complete speculation.

Blimey, going back 50 years is rather silly don't you think? But if doing that means you don't have to defend ten years of Tory cuts and austerity.....

Nationalising the health system was really daft wasn't it?

Providing us all with free schooling and  nationalising education was stupid.

The 45 Labour government also built over 1 million houses and introduced a stream of insurance schemes to attack poverty.

Introducing the minimum wage was barking mad.

Yeh, all these things were completely mad, done nothing for any of us, and ruined our lives. 

I can remember the late 80s and the early nineties? Can you recall Tory management of the economy then? Clearly not? Negative equity for millions. A million lost their homes. Interest rates up x3 in one day. Black Wednesday. Give me a break. All governments achieve successes and all of them run into economic problems. All of them.

As NoF has noted above the economic record of this government is abysmal. The right wing press won't tell you that but it's been a shocking record. Low growth. Today's figures reveal the lowest growth for 7 years. Investment has stagnated. Production flat-lined. Balance of payments deficit awful. Living standards stood still or gone backwards.

The national debt has doubled to £1.8 trillion.

Tories borrow more than Labour - always.

And the biggest threat to our economy is a hard/no deal Brexit. Every economist will tell you that. 

So, again, let's keep pretending that the Tories are wonderful in running the economy and if anyone dares question that faith then we can go back fifty years and quote from the seventies, though Heath was as bad as Callaghan and a Tory PM.

The economy was its best for the last 30 years under Labour and Tony Blair.

 

I

 

Think you will find that borrowing is declining after a sharp rise towards the end of the Blair/ Brown era

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=country+borrowing+through+the+years&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-gb&client=safari#imgrc=-n-lW9QgZlHsVM:

You don’t need to borrow as much if you sell off our gold reserve (on the cheap)

The economy was in a right mess by the end of Blair and Brown despite seen a boom period they managed to spend all the money we had, a recession followed which no party can be totally blamed for hence why there was a slow down in the economy, this was in pretty well all western countries.

 

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=country+borrowing+through+the+years&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-gb&client=safari#imgdii=xKzPXOsdwAMh7M:&imgrc=-n-lW9QgZlHsVM:

[TheSage]

1 hour ago, For Us All said:

Crikey,when were the health and education system's nationalised after being privatised.

Must have missed that?

Despite ten years of Tory cuts and austerity we have never witnessed a winter of discontent,with NHS ancillary workers blocking hospital entrances or grave diggers going on strike.We have never experienced a three-day week but I believe Jezza is already promising a four-day one?

And despite ten years of Tory cuts and austerity we have never witnessed a NHS scandal like the one that occurred at Mid-Staffs,where so many patients lost their lives because of neglect.

I believe that was on Blairs watch.

After that shocking incident you should be asking yourself,is the NHS safe under Labour?

It isn't alway the fault of those nasty Tories you know.

If you don't know the Labour created the NHS in the forties you need to get out more. Before then people had to pay to see a doctor or went sick or died.

The same with education. It's a national system, countrywide, and the first time we had free secondary schools for all was 45.

The three day week was 74 with Edward Heath. Forgotten that too?

But it gets a bit tedious when the only thing you keep repeating parrot fashion is what went on nearly 50 years ago. 

I can spend ages like you quoting Heath and power cuts, and the three day week and Black Wednesday when millions ended up losing their homes and more in negative equity. That hadn't happened before. Nor the poll tax fiasco. But I see little point in going back 30-40 years to try and make a silly political point that has nothing at all to do with 2019.

The scandal at Stafford was dreadful, agreed. But the deaths of 5,500 people on trolleys in A&E in the last two years is truly appalling, as is the NHS missing all its targets, as is selling our personal data to Amazon, as is criminally under-funding it. As is the shortage of doctors and nurses and health workers and cutbacks to the care system.

Blair spent far more of our GDP on health than any Tory government has done and improved it massively. It didn't miss all its targets then all the time.

Read what the King's Fund says if you want some facts.

https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/sites/default/files/field/field_publication_file/independent-audit-nhs-under-labour-1997–2005-sunday-times-march-2005.pdf

The weight of evidence is against you.