General Erection - 12th December 2019

[geosname]

1 hour ago, TheSage said:

It isn't exactly the golden age of politics is it?

I'll get stick from all corners for saying this (my coat is at the ready) but I do wish we'd got more politicians of integrity and status and gravitas, like Grieve, Starmer, and people who have deserted the sinking ship of Parliament like Burnham and Stewart. Both Tory and Labour have lost a great many people who had the ability and common sense to play a role in UK politics but for various reasons they've left in droves.

It's a sad reflection of what we've become and where we are but Cameron will go down in the history books as the biggest idiot of all time. He's unleashed this nationalist populism and subsequently his party has been taken over by the hard right ERG and lost its traditional one nation Tory strand, as evidenced by kicking out Heseltine and Major taking Johnson to court.

Conversely there is little doubt that JC has taken Labour left and also vacated the middle ground, losing centre Labour politicians in the process. Rightly or wrongly  many voters do not see JC as a leader. They think he's too left

We're between a rock and hard place. 

 

 

Agreed.

[TheSage]

7 minutes ago, geosname said:

I think regional policies are a good idea, it gives local areas more ability to scrutinise promises made, rather than the mish mash of national policy that usually gets lost in total funding promises..... the more specific the regional policies are the better in my opinion.... it allows the population of that region to weed out the crap and hold them accountable.

As for the trees....... where are they being planted?...... 1 billion covers a very large area.

I don't know about the numbers of trees and what that equates to in acres but I recall that the year before last 3 people alone could have planted as many trees as we planted in the whole of the UK.! 

The good thing about last night's TV debate was that it was conducted in a spirit of mutual respect and honesty. It made a marvellous change to recent political discourse and I felt relieved and happy that we still have some politicians who can act with decorum and debate climate change intelligently without throwing mud all the time. It lifted my spirits.

We do need to act quickly and see off the head in the sand opponents of climate change (like Trump and Farage) and start to act sensibly for our children.

It's very hard, I get that, but our government must do more. Things like investing in public transport, restricting car ownership, forcing us towards electric vehicles, finding ways of negating the damage of big corporations, looking at cattle farming closely, and stop building on greenfield sites. And all the rest..... The list is endless but painful for most of us consumers. I guess it's also a problem because private enterprise and environmental protection don't go hand in hand. But we need to do these things together, as countries and as people. It's too important to ignore. But it's for the other thread.

[mr.hobblesworth]

 

[geosname]

1 hour ago, TheSage said:

I don't know about the numbers of trees and what that equates to in acres but I recall that the year before last 3 people alone could have planted as many trees as we planted in the whole of the UK.! 

The good thing about last night's TV debate was that it was conducted in a spirit of mutual respect and honesty. It made a marvellous change to recent political discourse and I felt relieved and happy that we still have some politicians who can act with decorum and debate climate change intelligently without throwing mud all the time. It lifted my spirits.

We do need to act quickly and see off the head in the sand opponents of climate change (like Trump and Farage) and start to act sensibly for our children.

It's very hard, I get that, but our government must do more. Things like investing in public transport, restricting car ownership, forcing us towards electric vehicles, finding ways of negating the damage of big corporations, looking at cattle farming closely, and stop building on greenfield sites. And all the rest..... The list is endless but painful for most of us consumers. I guess it's also a problem because private enterprise and environmental protection don't go hand in hand. But we need to do these things together, as countries and as people. It's too important to ignore. But it's for the other thread.

I have no problem with the idea of cleaning up the environment..... but it won't be done by small measures.... ban plastic packaging and bottles would be a start..... ban all transport that uses fossil fuels..... build nuclear power generation plants.

The cost would decimate the economy and many big businesses but would have a major impact on the environment.... it won't happen.... planting trees is like urinating in the Pacific..... limited superficial effect.... sounds good on a manifesto though, whichever party broadcasts it.

Back in the day when bottles were glass and people had pig swill bins..... what were straws made of?

[Jacko51]

2 hours ago, Bycarsbill said:

Another "crap" idea that Labour announced yesterday but which very much fell below the radar was their pledge to plant a billion trees by the year 2040.  Sounds all very wonderful & green, but do the maths; a billion over 21 years implies planting nearly half a million trees every year or almost 40,000 tree plantings a month.  All very nice and laudible, but again a Labour pie-in- the-sky and unrealistic pledge!

Nowt crap about it, Bill.

[Bycarsbill]

1 hour ago, geosname said:

I think regional policies are a good idea, it gives local areas more ability to scrutinise promises made, rather than the mish mash of national policy that usually gets lost in total funding promises..... the more specific the regional policies are the better in my opinion.... it allows the population of that region to weed out the crap and hold them accountable.

As for the trees....... where are they being planted?...... 1 billion covers a very large area.

Precisely!  However well meaning, it's just another of Labour's populist, uncosted and not well-thought through ideas. It must be lovely in Jeremy's fantasy world--perhaps this is where I've been going wrong and I should just chuck-in the towel and join the 'fantasy brigade' in Jeremy's Socialist utopian army--bet it never rains the sun always shines there too? Oh, no, that won't do--the trees wouldn't grow would they?!

[Fosse69]

1 hour ago, geosname said:

I think regional policies are a good idea, it gives local areas more ability to scrutinise promises made, rather than the mish mash of national policy that usually gets lost in total funding promises..... the more specific the regional policies are the better in my opinion.... it allows the population of that region to weed out the crap and hold them accountable.

As for the trees....... where are they being planted?...... 1 billion covers a very large area.

Assume 1 metre spacing, that would give 1 million trees per square kilometre , thus 1000 sq km spread over England on land not the most profitable for farming.. Approx a 1/4 Million acres. A matter of increasing the current initiatives over the next 30 years, May had a plan for the North., in Leics 15 trees are available free to anyone with suitable land every little helps I suppose.

[Bycarsbill]

1 hour ago, TheSage said:

I mentioned Blair's strong economy and the poll tax as a counterbalance to all your earlier posts when you spent most of your time bashing Labour but ignoring things like that. I put them in for balance.

And since you didn't construct an argument against these statements - as you did about the seventies - then the assumption was that you agree with me. Thatcher and Major cocked up the economy, it lost them the 97 election and the economy was at its best in the last 30 years under Blair's Labour government. That's all true isn't it?

The facts are that ALL governments leave the economy in a worse state of debt. ALL of them. Not just Labour but Tories too. Both run into economic problems eventually. But I do agree with you fully - the late seventies was as bad as it gets and Labour (and some of the union barons back then) should rightly get clobbered. Absolutely.

The Tories by the way always borrow more than Labour and always have done. The current debt is astronomical. How many trillion is it now? Growth has been virtually zero for ten years. Most wages are barely back to 2008 levels. The 2008 crash was a world wide recession caused by the housing and banking sectors that spread to the UK. It wasn't caused by Labour. With hindsight (wonderful thing) Labour could have done more to regulate the banks and to tighten public finances. But no-one foresaw the future. The Tories said that they'd match Labour's spending plans in 2005 and wanted even fewer regulations for the banks! So it's a bit rich to blame Labour for this. They were not blameless, I agree, but it's easy to be wise after the event and it's a bit unfair. Even Osborne now admits that blaming Labour was a political scam.

Since 2010 as I say we have had virtually no growth, poor inward investment and a rundown of our public services. It is a poor economic record, very poor. Any economist worth his salt will tell you that in times of recession you don't slash and burn, you should invest to get the economy going. That's what Darling started to do but once Osborne got in he cut too deeply and too fast, damaging the fabric of society and leading to poor growth because of it. And yet the wealthiest people in society got huge tax cuts while the rest of us suffered. We were not in it all together. Poorer sections of society have paid for austerity and that isn't morally right in my book.

I like to think my glasses are a multi colour of red, yellow and green! But never blue. Having said I did once have a blue pair as I've voted for 4 different parties in my life and like you I'm still debating what I'll do although since I unashamedly dislike Johnson and his hard Brexit so much I'll probably vote tactically. 

If we could only bottle all our passions over politics for Saturday's match we'd be in the top flight!!

Debt as a percentage of GDP (the economists way of measuring it) has in fact come down under this government.Yes, I can agree that austerity was a blunt (if necessary) tool and some people have been disadvantaged by that. Sadly, there will always be winners & losers from any government's policies--it has always been the case and always will be the case whatever political persuasions those future governments are.

I've never claimed that this government's record has been spotless, but one of its best successes has been in employment. Sorry to mention the 70's again, but the levels of employment in this country now are the highest since the 1970s.  Tactical voting could yet be an option for me--but it certainly won't be for Labour I'm afraid!

I'll certainly second your final motion; here's to a victory (or at least a draw) in the cup tomorrow to ensure we're in that 3rd round draw hat on Monday.  Up the Vale!

[geosname]

4 minutes ago, Bycarsbill said:

Precisely!  However well meaning, it's just another of Labour's populist, uncosted and not well-thought through ideas. It must be lovely in Jeremy's fantasy world--perhaps this is where I've been going wrong and I should just chuck-in the towel and join the 'fantasy brigade' in Jeremy's Socialist utopian army--bet it never rains the sun always shines there too? Oh, no, that won't do--the trees wouldn't grow would they?!

1 billion trees planted 1 foot apart (bit close in my estimation for big trees) in a straight line would stretch 190,000 miles or from one end of the country to the other 270 times (approximately) making a strip half a mile wide.

[Bycarsbill]

17 minutes ago, Jacko51 said:

Nowt crap about it, Bill.

If it could be done I would definitely agree--but I'm afraid the point is it that it's just another pipe-dream from the 'fantasy' party and about as likely to happen as me scoring that hat-trick for PV at Wembley in May!

[Bycarsbill]

2 minutes ago, geosname said:

1 billion trees planted 1 foot apart (bit close in my estimation for big trees) in a straight line would stretch 190,000 miles or from one end of the country to the other 270 times (approximately) making a strip half a mile wide.

I suppose even Labour might think to plant them in a more ad-hoc formation?!

[Fosse69]

5 minutes ago, Bycarsbill said:

If it could be done I would definitely agree--but I'm afraid the point is it that it's just another pipe-dream from the 'fantasy' party and about as likely to happen as me scoring that hat-trick for PV at Wembley in May!

Just increasing the rate,

https://www.ael-treeconsultants.co.uk/2019/02/27/tree-planting/

[Fosse69]

9 minutes ago, geosname said:

1 billion trees planted 1 foot apart (bit close in my estimation for big trees) in a straight line would stretch 190,000 miles or from one end of the country to the other 270 times (approximately) making a strip half a mile wide.

Probably not far off, seemed to be similar in  a field about a mile away from me  when it was converted to a wood, Thinned out as they grew to keep the best specimens, now quite tall after 20 years and well used by dog walkers.

[geosname]

21 minutes ago, Fosse69 said:

Probably not far off, seemed to be similar in  a field about a mile away from me  when it was converted to a wood, Thinned out as they grew to keep the best specimens, now quite tall after 20 years and well used by dog walkers.

There is another problem....... 20 years of dogs farting..... and small trees doing little to combat the effects 555

[Jacko51]

1 hour ago, Fosse69 said:

Probably not far off, seemed to be similar in  a field about a mile away from me  when it was converted to a wood, Thinned out as they grew to keep the best specimens, now quite tall after 20 years and well used by dog walkers.

S T Bindoff, a famous Tudor historian, wrote the Pelican history of Tudor England many years ago.  In the introduction, in which he describes England at the beginning of the 16th century, he said that a squirrel could climb a tree in the northern tip of the country and hop from tree to tree all the way down to Cornwall!  Time we replanted some!