General Erection - 12th December 2019

[philpvfc]

16 minutes ago, ginge said:

Have a vote on an actual deal. I'm glad we agree the original referendum question was floored.

Pointless having another vote, we had one which wasn’t floored and leave won so accept it and move on.

[Fosse69]

16 minutes ago, geosname said:

What does the party say?

We will negotiate a better deal, call a 2nd referendum then campaign against the better deal we have negotiated?

Will that attract voters?.... does it sound logical?

It may not sound logical but it is logical.. The deal can only be better than May`s deal which is better than Johnson`s, but cannot be better than the best deal that we already have .QED 

Thus the recommendation must be to vote for the best deal, which is to remain.  A more democratic stance than the Lib`s revoke.

[geosname]

1 minute ago, Fosse69 said:

It may not sound logical but it is logical.. The deal can only be better than May`s deal which is better than Johnson`s, but cannot be better than the best deal that we already have .QED 

Thus the recommendation must be to vote for the best deal, which is to remain.  A more democratic stance than the Lib`s revoke.

If you don't honour the first vote it's not democratic..... if leave win again will remainers give up?... if remain win will the result be shoved down leaves throat as democratic? Or will remain voters get shelved and ignored?

It's a mess a simple second vote will not change.... it just spins the problem on its head

[Fosse69]

6 minutes ago, geosname said:

If you don't honour the first vote it's not democratic..... if leave win again will remainers give up?... if remain win will the result be shoved down leaves throat as democratic? Or will remain voters get shelved and ignored?

It's a mess a simple second vote will not change.... it just spins the problem on its head

The referendum created the problem, Brexit will not solve it. Only a statesman can do that, there is not one in sight.

[geosname]

6 minutes ago, Fosse69 said:

It may not sound logical but it is logical.. The deal can only be better than May`s deal which is better than Johnson`s, but cannot be better than the best deal that we already have .QED 

Thus the recommendation must be to vote for the best deal, which is to remain.  A more democratic stance than the Lib`s revoke.

And if the EU are true to their word, don't laugh they may be.. ok,.... their is no negotiation possible..... so no new deal, better or otherwise, will be negotiated.... so the second part of Labour's stance becomes redundant and no 2nd referendum will be called.... then what?... use Mays, Boris's deal as the better deal?

Will parliament have to agree the deal in principal before it's put to the people.... if not it's useless, meaningless,  if leave win it could be rejected yet again and the process continues for another 3 years

[Fosse69]

Scunthorpe sold to the Chinese, cheap at the price?

[geosname]

2 minutes ago, Fosse69 said:

The referendum created the problem, Brexit will not solve it. Only a statesman can do that, there is not one in sight.

Brexit or not 50%ish of the people who voted will be ignored.

The only democratic solution is to leave then have a 2nd referendum. 

But we won't get the same deal..... so leave could win again

[philpvfc]

If we have another referendum (which we shouldn’t) the only democratic options should be leave with no deal or leave with deal agreed with EU already.

[Fosse69]

10 minutes ago, geosname said:

And if the EU are true to their word, don't laugh they may be.. ok,.... their is no negotiation possible..... so no new deal, better or otherwise, will be negotiated.... so the second part of Labour's stance becomes redundant and no 2nd referendum will be called.... then what?... use Mays, Boris's deal as the better deal?

Will parliament have to agree the deal in principal before it's put to the people.... if not it's useless, meaningless,  if leave win it could be rejected yet again and the process continues for another 3 years

Call the referendum on whatever deal is available against remaining, straight forward.

[Fosse69]

2 minutes ago, philpvfc said:

If we have another referendum (which we shouldn’t) the only democratic options should be leave with no deal or leave with deal agreed with EU already.

Determined by the election mandate, one option will be remain.

[Jacko51]

If democracy had ended on 23 June 2016 we wouldn’t be having this election. 

[geosname]

1 hour ago, Fosse69 said:

Determined by the election mandate, one option will be remain.

Why?

That decision was made..... the only questions eligible are deal or no deal.

[Fosse69]

17 minutes ago, geosname said:

Why?

That decision was made..... the only questions eligible are deal or no deal.

Because remain is in the Labour plan, thus if it is on the referendum slip it will have been voted for. No deal was rejected by parliament, May`s deal was rejected by Mogg`s mob, Johnson abandoned his own deal instead of pushing on with it.

[tommytunstall]

How has Johnson changed tack on Brexit, absolute rubbish. It just shows what a Bluffer Farage is, he knew time was up for this Brexit party.

[Jacko51]

14 minutes ago, tommytunstall said:

How has Johnson changed tack on Brexit, absolute rubbish.

Because before the referendum he was pro EU.  Immediately after the referendum he wrote in his Telegraph column:

"I cannot stress too much that Britain is part of Europe, and always will be. There will still be intense and intensifying European cooperation and partnership in a huge number of fields: the arts, the sciences, the universities, and on improving the environment. EU citizens living in this country will have their rights fully protected, and the same goes for British citizens living in the EU. 

British people will still be able to go and work in the EU; to live; to travel; to study; to buy homes and to settle down. As the German equivalent of the CBI – the BDI – has very sensibly reminded us, there will continue to be free trade, and access to the single market. Britain is and always will be a great European power, offering top-table opinions and giving leadership on everything from foreign policy to defence to counter-terrorism and intelligence-sharing – all the things we need to do together to make our world safer."

That doesn't sound like a bloke who wants a clean break from Europe to me.